John Kettler Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 I tried to post the glad tidings early this morning, but the board was down for maintenance. My last AAR ("Sounds in the Night") is finished and has been sent to Treeburst155, with a copy to Tom. The fight was grueling; the writeup even moreso, with lots of nitty gritty, yet important, details to be covered. My thanks again to all who helped make RoW possible. With my work here done, I now return to my remaining unfulfilled Invitational obligations and to working on my "conjure CMBB capable Mac" spell, so I'm ready to fight in that upcoming tournament. Regards, John Kettler PS Some here seem to be saying too much about the forces in scenarios unseen yet by most. Please protect the terror index and fear of the unknown! [ February 22, 2002, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Tabpub and I got a late start on our game due to his being swamped with other games in process. Things were further delayed by a couple of unfortunately-timed travel absences on both our parts. We are now proceeding as quickly as possible and are several turns beyond the halfway point. I apologize for this delay and will do everything possible to wind things up as soon as we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted February 23, 2002 Share Posted February 23, 2002 Thanks for the update, Bimmer! Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Oh, I forgot to mention the only game you cannot discuss at this point is "Crisis At Kommerscheidt". Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gredeker Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Originally posted by Treeburst155: Oh, I forgot to mention the only game you cannot discuss at this point is "Crisis At Kommerscheidt". Treeburst155 out.I've shared a bit about my playing of "Sounds in the Night" on the other thread. Head on over and say a piece. Any word on an estimated completion date for the remaining game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Bimmer (Andrej) has emailed me expressing concern over the fact he and TabPub (Rob) were unable to make progress this past weekend. He has not heard from TabPub since Friday. He has informed TabPub of the fact that theirs is the only game still not finished. Unfortunately, Andrej cannot finish the game by himself. We've come this far so we can wait awhile longer. In the meantime I'm really leaning toward the four player round robin (3 games for each player)for the finals. I'm fairly certain we could get this done before CMBB comes out. The scoring would be very competitive since there will not be enough games to obtain an accurate median. The schedule would look like this: # Scenario_1 PlayerA PlayerB PlayerC PlayerD # Scenario_2 PlayerC PlayerA PlayerB PlayerD # Scenario_3 PlayerA PlayerD PlayerB PlayerC Every player would play each scenario one time. Every player would play every other player one time, and have his performance compared to every other player one time (same side of same scenario). Here's an explanation of the scoring by Nabla, taken from the Nordic Championship thread: "I think we're going to use the nasty competitive version: one point for the player who gets a better CM score than the other guy who's playing the same side. That is, if we have players A-D, and they play a scenario with end results A 81 - B 19 C 80 - D 20 Then A and D get one point and B and C get zero points. Of course the example illustrates the extreme case when the difference between the scores on the same side is minimal. This is a very competitive scheme in the sense that it does not suffice to do pretty well. You really have to push it in order to get a better CM score, otherwise you'll end up with zero. I think it's ok in the final round. Here's a suggestion for handling ties. First use the result of the match between the players under consideration as a deciding factor. That is, if players A and B have a tie, then see how the battle in which A and B have played on the same side has ended. The player who has done better wins. This is still not a foolproof way because we might for example have a tie between three players A-C. The previous rule would not help if A has won B, B has won C and C has won A (in the sense that one has done better when playing on the same side of the same scenario). In such a case I suggest that we sum up the raw point differences of these games. That is, if for example the CM score differences are A-B +2, B-C +10, C-A +4, we get A -2, B +8, C -6, and B is the winner." Handling the finals like this means I don't need to use my ultra-balanced (possibly boring)scenario. You don't have to win the game to get a point. You just have to out-score the guy who plays that scenario from the same side you do. The pressure would be really on to maximize your score in each game. I like it. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabpub Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Sorry that I was missed this weekend, as it was my first anniversary and I would like to see my second one(with this wife I might add). We have reached the "crisis" part of the battle(I hope that this is the crisis, I would hate to see more). Turns will now exchange as rapidly as possible, as we cannot TCP due to circumstances at Andrej's end, and I cannot work on turns during the day(I am a vampire). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 TB, The finals sound like they will be real fun. I think it will keep to the spirit of the past games where we have been playing real battles. Well simulations of battles gone by. That is in part what has made this such fun is that we have had our paws on battles that have not been played by those other than the play testers. So doing a round robin for those in the finals and playing 3 different new scenarios is reward enough to have got that far. As for the time this would take I think it is worth it. The idea of playing a balanced (maybe boring)scenario vs something with a bit more guts is not appealing. There should be enough games to show who is top dog. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Happy Anniversary, TabPub! May you have many more! Holien, There is one problem with the round robin finals idea. I don't have any scenarios yet. :eek: I'm working on it. Treeburst155 out. [ February 26, 2002, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Hey TB, Talk to German Boy, He is a great designer and might knock something out for you. Failing that WB is ok... (For Non Brits (or those not tuned to a Brit wave length, as there are some Non Brits that have become attuned) please take the above with a modicum of Salt, Pepper and Vingar is optional) [ February 26, 2002, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Holien ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gredeker Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Originally posted by Holien: Hey TB, Talk to German Boy, He is a great designer and might knock something out for you. Failing that WB is ok... (For Non Brits (or those not tuned to a Brit wave length, as there are some Non Brits that have become attuned) please take the above with a modicum of Salt, Pepper and Vingar is optional)Note: Remember, kids, the wink - - is a clue for you, the reader, that irony is likely included in the post. For those of you who aren't familiar with this literary device, irony is defined by Webster as "the use of words to express something other than, and especially the opposite of, the literal meaning." Thus, we can safely assume that Holien's remark of "Failing that WB is ok" is an ironic statement, and that he very well may mean the opposite. Remember... the is your clue that irony is included in the post. We hope that this literary moment will enrich your enjoyment of the board. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming... And, lest I forget - [ February 26, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: redeker ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 I'm talking to people right now about the scenarios we need, including myself. LOL! I'll have some fun stuff for the finalists one way or the other. You needn't worry yourselves. Da Manager will take care of everything. For one, I have what was going to be the grand finale scenario which I'm somewhat proud of. I also have a map I made that is quite interesting IMO. We'll see what develops while the last game is finishing up. I'd guess we will probably be starting the finals in 2-3 weeks. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 TB just send the scenario over and I will test it out for you. As for that Red Deck character I felt the need to protect myself after that Grumpy Scot in Shanghai got the hump with my mail in the other forum. He made me all self-conscious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gredeker Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Originally posted by Holien: TB just send the scenario over and I will test it out for you. As for that Red Deck character I felt the need to protect myself after that Grumpy Scot in Shanghai got the hump with my mail in the other forum. He made me all self-conscious Did I mention that I was bored silly at work yesterday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Ahhh this accounts for the number of posts we make. The other sods must be contented with their work life. Apart from JK Rocket man who gets discontent from termites and WB scenarios with him on the sticky end. H P.s. TB thanks for the scenario your secrets are safe with me. My comments to follow after I have run through it a few times. P.P.s Red Deck I see you are still at work with time on your hands. I have a pint of Old Peculier in mine (hand that is) after a hard day in the office trying to get different depts to work together. Hmm Time for another I feel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Oh my, all the way down to page 3!! Bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted March 3, 2002 Share Posted March 3, 2002 Any news of the last game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 We made some good progress Friday, but my opponent is heading out of town today. He said he has installed CM on his laptop and will try to continue from the road, but I don't know if this is going to work out or not. We have about six turns left to go. We are doing everything in our power to get finished ASAP. Once again, sorry for the delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Six turns, eighteen exchanges, six exchanges per week (3 files per player)equals 3 weeks. I can live with that. Especially since CMBB is at least 90 days away (probably 120-150). There is a good chance I may have to design the scenarios for the finals myself. Just in case, I spent all day Saturday doing just that. I completed one, and I'm rather pleased with it. It's not too difficult to come up with something interesting as long as one does not worry a great deal about balance and avoids historical scenarios because of the necessary research. In fact, being unfettered by the balance issue opens up a whole new world to designers. Historical battles can be truly historical without adjustments for balance. 90% of play-testing can be eliminated from any scenario too. I think the finalists will enjoy what I come up with should we need to use my creations. You just gotta love the Nabla scoring system. Tournaments are fair, and scenario possibilities for them are much greater. Thanks, Nabla! Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Actually, I would think we will be done in considerably less than three weeks, but that's just me talking. We managed to do about 3 turns on Friday alone - all we need is a couple good days. Its just a question of when those days happen to fall. We'll try to move it along ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabla Posted March 4, 2002 Share Posted March 4, 2002 Originally posted by Treeburst155: In fact, being unfettered by the balance issue opens up a whole new world to designers. Historical battles can be truly historical without adjustments for balance. 90% of play-testing can be eliminated from any scenario too. I think the finalists will enjoy what I come up with should we need to use my creations. You just gotta love the Nabla scoring system. Tournaments are fair, and scenario possibilities for them are much greater. Thanks, Nabla! Thank you. I'll send you some email about dangerous design pitfalls in designing (possibly) unbalanced scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted March 5, 2002 Share Posted March 5, 2002 Originally posted by Treeburst155: [QB In fact, being unfettered by the balance issue opens up a whole new world to designers. Historical battles can be truly historical without adjustments for balance. ... You just gotta love the Nabla scoring system. Tournaments are fair, and scenario possibilities for them are much greater. Thanks, Nabla! Treeburst155 out.[/QB]The Nabla scoring system is great, but if I could throw in my 2 cents as a survivor of both ROW and the (unbalanced) Nordic Wannabe tourney, IMHO scenarios that are at least somewhat balanced are a whole lot more fun for the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted March 5, 2002 Share Posted March 5, 2002 Originally posted by Treeburst155: [QB In fact, being unfettered by the balance issue opens up a whole new world to designers. Historical battles can be truly historical without adjustments for balance. ... You just gotta love the Nabla scoring system. Tournaments are fair, and scenario possibilities for them are much greater. Thanks, Nabla! Treeburst155 out.[/QB]The Nabla scoring system is great, but if I could throw in my 2 cents as a survivor of both ROW and the (unbalanced) Nordic Wannabe tourney, IMHO scenarios that are at least somewhat balanced are a whole lot more fun for the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted March 5, 2002 Share Posted March 5, 2002 Combined Arms, I agree that the scenario should be fun for both sides. The catch is, what the designer thinks is fun may not be what all players think is fun. In general, a heavily lopsided scenario should be carefully considered by the designer from the underdog's perspective. Will the underdog enjoy the game? What I'm doing is trying to design balanced scenarios; but I'm not going to play-test them to death to determine balance. I'm also not going to use symmetrical, drawish maps. I'll let the Nabla scoring system take care of any imbalance. That's what I mean about freedom from the balance issue. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabla Posted March 5, 2002 Share Posted March 5, 2002 Originally posted by CombinedArms: The Nabla scoring system is great, but if I could throw in my 2 cents as a survivor of both ROW and the (unbalanced) Nordic Wannabe tourney, IMHO scenarios that are at least somewhat balanced are a whole lot more fun for the players.I don't think there are many greatly unbalanced scenarios in NWT. Perhaps you inherited some bad positions when you came in as a recruitment in the middle of the tournament? But I do understand what you're saying: if you get your a** kicked left and right it's not so much fun. I don't know how difficult it is to get the feeling that what counts is how well you do, given the situation and the forces you have. If you've got the bad hand you're not expected to win. In the future, if I will still be designing scenarios for unbalanced tournaments, some of my scenarios will always be unbalanced. I will keep the players on their toes, and the best way to do this is to keep the threat real. This can be painful for the players, but I think that real commanders were pretty jumpy too, and frustrated when their troops were killed in large numbers. [ March 05, 2002, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: Nabla ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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