AFV camouflage - what happened?

[brummbar]

Most of the relevant books in my possession say how advanced, innovative and influential German WW2 camouflage schemes were (especially the late-war ones) and their faithful inclusion in CMBO and CMBB by the designers and modders provides much of the fun of the game for me.

What puzzles me is that I can't remember seeing a military vehicle since WW2 (in TV news reports etc) in anything other than plain green or sand (for the desert). No doubt exceptions can be pointed out, but I think they are indeed exceptions; and one can see how some uniforms owe something to the ideas behind those of the Waffen SS for example, but in general and particularly as far as vehicles are concerned no-one seems to have developed what the Germans did in WW2.

Why should this be so? It cannot be solely due to recent technological developments allowing vehicles to be detected whatever their colours, since it seems to have been the case ever since 1945. Can it be that the German schemes were adjudged less effective than one might think, or simply that the victorious powers did not have a tradition of such developed camouflage to build on? Any other explanations?

[Derfel]

Hmmm interesting point. I'm sure some uber-grog will be along shortly with quotes from official policy documents as to why camo patterns were / are not used on modern AFVs.

Meanwhile I have racked my brains (such as they are) and from personal experience I seem to recall that nowadays the vehicles that gets camo painted are non-afv. i.e. trucks, halftracks, recce jeeps etc. At least this is true of the Swedish army and I seem to recall Israeli camo'ed trucks in the Lebanon (but not the tanks)and british camo on vehicles in Cyprus.

Perhaps it's just that with more advanced targetting technology it isn't worth the effort, if you're close enough to see the enemy AFV with your own eyes then either he or you are alreday dead...

-Derfel

[Hortlund]

Sweden have camo painted MBT's. (Leo2a6's)

[Derfel]

Really? I don't think I've seen any except standard green... but then again it's been awhile...

-Derfel

[von Schalburg]

All Danish vehicles is painted in a black and green camouflage scheme as can be seen on the pictures.

http://www.fakta-om-forsvaret.dk/pic/hrnpic/m113-a2.jpg

http://www.fakta-om-forsvaret.dk/pic/hrnpic/eagles.JPG

http://www.fakta-om-forsvaret.dk/PIC/hrnpic/leo1a5_stor.jpg

The last picture is a leopard 2A4 still painted in it's original german pattern, green, black and brown.

http://www.fakta-om-forsvaret.dk/pic/hrnpic/leopard2a4.JPG

[Rostik]

Have you seen new ukrainian T-82?(They are different from russian tanks)

[mike8g]

Germany has changed the camouflage of all its combat vehicles more than 10 years ago.

Olive green was replaced by the colors Bronzegrün, Lederbraun & Teerschwarz.

[ December 15, 2002, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: mike8g ]

[Hans]

Cost

In nations with temperature weather you'd have to repaint the vehicle at least 3-4 times a year - then you have problem with paint build up.

Plus the paint used is special, rather expensive infra absorbing types.

The stardard is to wait until you are deployed then camo based on the area and season.

[Michael Emrys]

It's still widely done, though not in the more interesting ambush patterns of the late Wehrmacht. Last time I was on Fort Lewis (admittedly quite a few years back), all their vehicles were camoed.

Michael

[Nidan1]

I think a lot of that has to do with the new targeting technology. Paint on vehicles now has to absorb infra-red and laser sights, rather than to blend into the scenery.

In WW2 most sighting was done visually, with telescopic sights aiding that task. In todays world sighting is done with lasers and such which allow tanks so equipped to "see" another vehicle through all sorts of conditions, without actually visually sighting them. It really doesnt matter what color a tank is painted, if it can be seen at night, through fog, from ranges out to 3000 or 4000 meters.

[ December 15, 2002, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Nidan1 ]

[K_Tiger]

Even the battleship "Tirpitz" was camoed, so i dont think the germs made it "just for fun" or only to have a nice, fashion like, colored army.

[Bruno Weiss]

Camo is used when needed, and generally not used until needed. This pattern of use when needed can be seen in WWII and since. The Germans developed or improvised camo use after it bacame necessary. Initially, they didn't use it. Which applies pretty much to the Allied forces as well. The US entered the war without a great amount of camo, when it became necessary due to the losses taken, it was used. The most graphic examples can be seen with regard to the Air Force camo patterns. When the US had achieved air supremacy, the camo wasn't used as much. The reason? Probably cost, not only in supplies but in manhours and maintenance.

[Vanir Ausf B]

T-80

[Makes The Jelly Judder]

Wouldn't freindly fire have something to do with it too? When you have air supremacy you don't really want miss idenification of your ground based forces. My understnading was that the camo applied to allied tanks in the desert in WWII was designed to hide the tank from German planes.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Makes The Jelly Judder:

My understnading was that the camo applied to allied tanks in the desert in WWII was designed to hide the tank from German planes.

I don't think that applied to the paint jobs but to the use of camouflage netting spread over the vehicle when it was stopped. And it was used over all vehicles and gun positions wherever hostile aircraft were likely to appear.

Michael

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Bruno is correct - why spend a lot of time camouflaging things when you're not really at war, especially given limited budgets.

The German camo scheme is actually a NATO standard, or so I thought, and Canadian tanks IIRC have been painted the three colour scheme on occasion.

Compare to above

Most military equipment gets repainted for ceremonial parades, not use on training exercises.

The most effective camouflage in any event is either natural camo - ie branches and trees - or in areas where there is no large vegetation (ie the desert or steppe) the use of camouflage nets or tarps. The latter only work when the vehicle is static, but it doesn't matter what type of camo you have - paint, branches, or nets - the vehicle is going to attract the eye once in motion.

[ December 15, 2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Splinty]

Most U.S Army vehicles are also painted in the standard NATO 3 tone scheme. However since the most spectacular modern warfare footage comes from the Gulf War I think most people get the impression that all Army vehicles are painted in Desert Sand. Although thanks to that conflict many still are. The particular type of special paint that's used is called C.A.R.C. for Chemical Agent Resistant Coating. The stuff is so toxic when it's in liquid form that special suits and breather gear must be used when painting the vehicles, which also explains why there are still sand painted trucks and AFVs almost 12 years after the conflict.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Splinty:

... which also explains why there are still sand painted trucks and AFVs almost 12 years after the conflict.

Of course, since that war evidently never finished to the satisfaction of certain parties, perhaps there is another reason....?

[gunnergoz]

The original questioner apparently is not aware of the US Army's diverse and widely applied schemes that evolved from the mid-70's and into the 80's, i.e. the "European scheme" and the later and very flexible "MERDEC" scheme. The MERDEC scheme was very effective in breaking up vehicle outlines but it was applied in the field and came before the present generation of toxic paints made field-applied paints largely impractical.

I'll leave comment about the other natioan's camo schemes to those that know them better...

[flamingknives]

British Army vehicles use olive green/black camo - sometimes.

[Olle Petersson]

I guess the reason it disappeared was that the paint normally is covered with mud and dust anyway...

But AFAIK almost all new paintschemes for AFVs are multicolour.

Here's the latest camo (called MCS) from Barracuda:

I've also seen other design projects in very "ambush pattern"-like painting.

Cheers

Olle

[coe]

It would be interesting if CMBB took into account the camouflaging abilities of the various nations...I mean for example - the later period German camouflage probably had some sort of edge.....

Conan

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by coe:

It would be interesting if CMBB took into account the camouflaging abilities of the various nations...I mean for example - the later period German camouflage probably had some sort of edge.....

Conan

Oddly enough, I think the dark grey was more appropriate in many situations than the ordnance tan vehicles.

[Chelt]

At the height of the Cold War, the British forces in West Berlin painted their vehicles in an odd-looking disruptive urban camouflage scheme, because the usual rural paint stood out in the city. (Remember, Berlin remained under tri-power occupation until German reunification, half a century after the end of WWII.)

From the Ex-Military Land Rover Association. Quite a British name, isn't it.

David

[Chelt]

Rackum-frackum double-posts.

[ December 16, 2002, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Trap One ]