Panther 'D's

[flamingknives]

Why are they so good?

They weigh 2 tons less than any other Panther but have the same protection as the 'A', adn a smoke discharger.

Add this ti the fact that there is no armour quality problems, and they're really rather good.

My main question is how do they save that 2 tons?

[Bone_Vulture]

Same level of protection? I don't know how much metal you need to add a several centimeters of extra armor on critical locations, but two tons seems much at the first glance. How much did the tank weigh altogether?

[Silvio Manuel]

Did they maybe not have the armored skirts to protect the tracks/thin sides?

[flamingknives]

The 'D' weighs 47 tons to the 'A' and 'G's 49. The armour thickness and angle is the same on both the 'D' and the 'A'.

Everything given in the Unit data window is the same, with the exception of the armour quality and the smoke discharger.

[Captain Wacky]

How do numerous mechanical problems sound?

[flamingknives]

Like someone dropping their toolbox into a cement mixer?

Last time I checked this wouldn't make them any lighter, thus giving lower ground pressure and greater acceleration.

[pakfan]

AFAIK, the Panther D was the first prduced Panther. Then came A and G (and some Prototypes in between).

The Panther's armor thickness changed a bit. Maybe the CMBB numbers are not precise enough (I dint' check them, because I don't have the game on this PC right now).

Front Turret, Side Upper Hull and Upper Hull Top changed quite a bit. If this sums up to a 2-ton difference can probably be calculated... by someone else .

These are the numbers from www.achtungpanzer.com:

Panther D:

Front Turret: 100/10

Front Upper Hull: 80/55

Front Lower Hull: 60/55

Side Turret: 45/25

Side Upper Hull: 40/40

Side Lower Hull: 40/0

Rear Turret: 45/25

Rear Lower Hull: 40/30

Turret Top / Bottom: 16/83 / 16/ 90

Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 16/90

Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 30/90 / 16/90

Gun Mantlet: 100/round

Panther G

Front Turret: 110/11

Front Upper Hull: 80/55

Front Lower Hull: 60/55

Side Turret: 45/25

Side Upper Hull: 50/30

Side Lower Hull: 40/0

Rear Turret: 45/25

Rear Lower Hull: 40/30

Turret Top / Bottom: 16/84 / 16/ 90

Upper Hull Top / Bottom: 40/90 / 16/90

Lower Hull Top / Bottom: 30/90 / 16/90

Gun Mantlet: 100/round

[ October 24, 2002, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: pakfan ]

[Captain Wacky]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Like someone dropping their toolbox into a cement mixer?

Last time I checked this wouldn't make them any lighter, thus giving lower ground pressure and greater acceleration.

My point is that they aren't as good as they are at a tactical level in CM because that doesn't model mechanical problems. Try planning an operation and watching 1/3 of them break down on the way to the battlefield.

[Jack Carr]

Didn't the early model Panther's have a smaller/less horsepower engine? I don't know about two tons less but perhaps this was a factor. Does the game show the smaller engine? I was under the impression that the Germans beefed up the engine after experiencing the "teething troubles"? If my ass is moldy on this please let me know. Thanks folks.

[offtaskagain]

Looks like the deck is 25mm thicker on the G. That's a pretty big slab of armor and could easily cause the 2 ton increase. I don't know if going to the bigger engine would cause a weight increase because it's probably only slightly higher displacement but makes more effecient use of the power.

[Bastables]

Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

Looks like the deck is 25mm thicker on the G. That's a pretty big slab of armor and could easily cause the 2 ton increase. I don't know if going to the bigger engine would cause a weight increase because it's probably only slightly higher displacement but makes more effecient use of the power.

D/1 was aluminium alloy block engine

D/2, A and G sported a higher horsepower Cast Iron block engine

[jake bullet]

ok this is the info i got from

encyclopedia of the german army in the 20th century

by Bruce Quarrie

it states

and i quote

Panther D

weight in action 44tonnes

height 2.95m

armour thickness turret 45-80mm

.................hull 40-80mm

Panther A

weight in action 45.5tonnes

height 3.01m

armour thickness turret 45-100mm

Panther G

weight in action 44.8 tonnes

height 2.95m

armour thickness turret 45-100mm

as you can clearly see from the figures

the panther A is taller and has thicker turret armour than the D model the G model is slightly lighter than the A because it is not as tall but is still equipt with the heavier turret armour

hope this helps

RED DWARF

Kryten"SIR THEY'VE TAKEN MISTER RIMMER"

Cat"QUICK LETS GET OUTTA HERE BEFORE THEY BRING HIM BACK"

[ October 24, 2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: jake bullet ]

[flamingknives]

Those figures are quite different from those in CM:BB

The only difference between the 'D' and the other models is 2 tons btw both the 'A' and the 'G' and a slight difference in armour thickness on the hull side of the 'G' everything else is exactly the same

It could be that the 'D' had the aluminium engine

[ScouseJedi]

According to the Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW2 - Chamberlin and Doyle:

All Panthers used the Maybach HL230P30. Now it doesn't gve any details on material this is made from but surely an aluminium block would be designated differently from a cast one.

The Ausf A had many changes: new commander cupola, doubled rim bolts on wheels, stregthened running gear, the turret had many modifications.

The only armour increase was 10mm (3/8") on the front of the turret.

I think 2 tons (1.8 metric) could be explained here quite easily without a change to the engine.

[flamingknives]

what's the front area of the turret?

[flamingknives]

what's the front area of the turret?

[TSword]

The early Panthers had an aluminium engine, which accounted for some hundred kilograms less weight.

Then in the A various structural reinforcments were added like strenghtend turret basket, another cupola which i suppose was also heavier, then the later As had an additional MG with ammo (D only MP-port on front plate). Also the suspension arms might have been reinforced, and eventually the front floor and deck plates may have been made stronger also.

Greets

Daniel

[Andrew H.]

It looks like the side upper hull was also increased from 40 mm to 50 mm. That's a big slab of metal and could account for two tons right there.

[flamingknives]

That hull side thickening is only between the 'D' and the 'G'. Plus the angle is less for the 50mm plate, so it doesn't have to be as big.

[jake bullet]

ok here's a bit more info i found out

all info from the same book

field experience brought several suggestions for modifications from the troops in the field and these were incorporated in the Ausf A, 1,768 of which were manufactured. This had thicker turret armour strengthened suspension and ball mounted machine gun instead of a letterbox flap in the glicis plate, while episcopes replaced the direct vision slits in the commanders cupola. As a result of these modifications overall weight inevitebly went up. On the final model the Ausf G which went into production in March 1944 further improvements were made to the transmission, the drivers vision slit was replaced by an episcope and extra armour was added to the upper hull sides to give greater protection to the fuel tanks. Ammunition storage was increased from 79 to 82 rounds. 3,740 Ausf Gs were manufactured before the wars end.

[Bastables]

Originally posted by ScouseJedi:

All Panthers used the Maybach HL230P30. Now it doesn't gve any details on material this is made from but surely an aluminium block would be designated differently from a cast one.

First 250 Panthers left the factory with the aluminium block 650hp HL 210 P30 at 3000rpm. May 31 1943 the 251st Panther mounted the cast iron block HL 230 P30 700hp later ristricted from 3000rpm to 2500rpm. (1995 Jentz, Panther Tank, Pg 36).