What units should I pick for my first PBEM?

[Cybeq]

I just got the setup. Here is the deal:

Axis

1250pt. Meeting Engagement

Village

Moderate Trees

Clear, Day

No Hills!

Now, ordinarily I would have no trouble choosing units but I'm a little frightened by my opponent's choice of no hills. I have never played a game with no hills. Are there any hard and fast rules to playing on a flat battlefield?

[catnip]

With Moderate trees and no hills, you probably won't get a chance to setup AT guns in nice spots. Same thing for infantry guns and to a lesser degree, onboard mortars.

If you are not playing a short 75 game, you can take advantage of tanks like the hetzer, as long as you can cover your flank. If you are allowed to buy VG SMG squads, all you have to do is lay down a lot of smoke and walk right in from tree cover to tree cover.

For armor, I would buy hetzers for AT work and StuH 42s for anti intantry. Oh, and one puma to cover the flank.

Good luck!

[Cpl Carrot]

I would be frightened too. Just because there are no hills does not make it any harder or easier. There will most likely to be enough trees to limit the LOS. The lack of hills removes the ability of hull down positions unless you find a conveniant wall to park behind.

You can probably get away with hetzers and stugs as LOS will likely be narrow.

Infantry wise any will probably do, though make sure you get some shrecks and artillery. I would only get 81mm spotters, suppression being the idea rather than kills.

Hope this helps. Let us know how it all pans out.

(another tip would be to generate a few QB with those parameters and get a feeling of the likely layout of the map - somethings may seem to crop up alot and you can try to incorperate this into any buying strategy you use.)

[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: Cpl Carrot ]

[Cybeq]

Catnip: I forgot to mention we are playing Fionn's Panther/76 rule.

[catnip]

For panther 76 rules you pretty much have to take the hetzer and or the panzer IV/70.

For 1250pts you can buy these (regular quality):

2x hetzer (or 1x panzer IV/70)

1x StuH42

8x Volks SMG squads (if allowed)

1x PSW 234/3(75mm gun) or Puma

2x reg 81mm spotters (for smokescreens)

1x halftrack with 20mm gun

If you feel your opponent is going to buy a churchill, buy the Panzer IV/70 instead of the two hetzers. With this force you should be able to get your troops really close to the flag area by sneaking from tree patches.

Once you get to the point at which you want to launch your attack, call in the smoke and as soon as it lands send out 1 or 2 split squads 15 to 20 seconds in front of your main advance. Follow the main advance with your tanks poking out from behind trees. If all goes well, your troops will make it with little casualties and if they do encounter tanks, they will button them up and become easy targets for your tanks. Just make sure to overwatch your troop advance with your tanks.

In conclusion, your goal is to get those SMGs in as close as you can. If your game date is March 45 they even get panzerfaust 100s which can kill tanks at 50m usually.

Good luck

[Freak]

With moderate trees on a map with no hills, there is a good chance you'll get a good spot to put at least one ATG down in good postion to defeat, say that one dreaded heavy armored Churchill. If you purchase the 88L71 ATG (model on the Tiger II) though it will be pricey, your opponent, if he has that churchill, could save the day.

The trick would be to keep the gun hidden until you get a very clean LOS and a high percentage hit chance then let it go. Once you let your gun fire, most likely it won't last too much longer in the game so you have to make it count and you need to use it on his heaviest armor. Then try and do what you can with it for its surving turns. A good idea would be to have a HQ unit with leadership in stealth and combat, this way you can be assured he stays hidden and not seen by the enemy and the has the extra ability to make good on that first shot. Don't be afraid to hold off on lesser targets even if at close range. This is unless you have already destroyed his best armor. Of course there are times when you have to heeve hoe the idea of holding off and just let the gun go.

Anyways...all this is moot because most likely you know all this.

P.S. Also, use and position your armor to try and lure him into your ATG trap. One other thing is to keep the gun somewhat back from the front line.

I have this eeri feeling you know all this already

Oh and goodluck.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Depends on your style of play, but something that would work for me:

VG Fusilier SMG squad x6

SMGs rule the CM battlefield. Sad, but true.

81mm FO

120mm FO

One to smoke as Catnip said. The other to pound any enemy troop concentrations.

Shreck team (veteran) x 2

Never leave home without them.

Panzer Mk IV H x 2

Turreted German tanks are a rare sight. Most go for the Hetzer or JPz IV/70 (see above posts). The Pz IV is more vulnerable, but is much more versitile than the Hetzer and cheaper than the IV/70. I've had good luck with them, but you have to really know how to use armor. If you are not confident yet, take the Hetzer as it allows greater room for error.

PSW 234/1 x 2

Flank protection for your tanks/tank hunters. 20mm is murder for Allied HTs and Greyhounds and is nice vs. infantry as well.

Puma

Can take out most Allied tanks at short range. And FAST.

Total pts: 1250

Not particularly historical, but it is a versitile force. If you run up against Churchills or Jumbos you will have to be creative with your Shreck teams, but remember infantry and artillery win battles, not tanks.

[Ron]

Choices eh? You have considerible more flexibility in composing your force as the Axis compared to your Allied opponent. With 1250pts your opponent will probably only be able to get 5 platoons of infantry as the US without sacrificing elsewhere, while as the Axis you can easily get 6 will very little adjustment, more is better. With this setup the village will be the focal point so expect some nasty fighting there supported by direct fire. A flat map won't give you any hills but the village will provide walls to go hulldown behind and tall buildings as vantage points for your FOs. A flat map will actually be in your favor if you go the TD and AT gun route in your force selection. I would try and get at least one 'larger' arty FO because the 81mm FO will be useless against troops in buildings.

You have probably selected your force already but here's a couple more examples in addition, not sure about their historical value

1 x VG Coy

2 x VG SMG Plt

1 x VG SMG Plt(Vet)

1 x 81mm FO

1 x 120mm FO

2 x HMGs

2 x PzShrecks

2 x StugIII(late)

1 Wespe

1 234/1

1 234/3

or

1 x SS Rifle Coy(2HMGs)

1 x SS Rifle Plt

1 x SS Mot Plt(Vet)

1 x 81mm FO

1 x 120mm FO

2 x PzShrecks

1 x Pak40

1 x Tiger(late)

1 x 234/1

1 x 234/3

Looking at the examples above I see we all have different perspectives but I guess that's what makes CM so great, you can be successful with any of these force selections depending on how you play... and luck of course

Ron

[Cybeq]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I have already purchased and deployed my forces. Common sense dictates that I not reveal my force composition in a public forum. However, I feel that I won't be handicapped by my purchases. My tactical ability on the other hand.....

[Gen-x87H]

Flat land can be good for ATG duty.

just a thought for future reference.

Gen

[JasonC]

I recommend the following, all regulars -

1 motorized panzergrenadier company

2 panzerschreck

1 150mm FO

2 Pz IV H or Jadgpanzer IV w/skirt

2 SPW-251/9 75mm halftrack

2 SPW-251/1 carrier halftrack

Then task them as follows. The company HQ takes 2 HMG and 1 81mm mortar and loads onto one of the tanks and one of the carrier halftracks, HQ+HMG on the tank, HMG+81mm in the 'track. The weapons platoon HQ takes the other heavy weapons in the same manner, and loads on the other tanks and 'track. These are assigned to the two flanks. Then your least stellar platoon leader takes point with his Pz Gdr platoon in the center. The remaining two platoons each get a scheck and escort one of the 75mm halftracks, behind and beside the point platoon in a "wedge".

Try to get the flanking weapons sections far enough forward on each side to converge their fire on the far side of the village, to prevent easy entry or exit. Naturally they will also see their sides of the village. Fast move the vehicles to decent cover, then unload the teams. HQ spotting, MGs beside them, mortar back to fire indirect. Support them with the track MGs too - it can also provide repositioning of a couple, when needed. But as soon as the weapons are dropped off, the tanks are free to hunt independently.

The force has considerable HE firepower, direct and indirect. The big 150mm shells will be more useful against village targets than smaller stuff. And 4 75mm guns with 150+ shells will provide a substantial ability to clean out houses. The Pz Gdr infantry type has good ranged firepower, which is useful on a flat map. The HMGs will also prove useful for the same reason, and do not need to get close.

When chosing Pz IVs or Jdg Pzers it is up to you. The latter will handle enemy armor better, because of their sloped front plates. But they have smaller HE loads, only 1 MG with less ammo, and no turret. So they won't work as well against infantry. The SPW-251/9s will provide anti-infantry HE, though, so you can live with the Jdgs if you prefer them.

Then I'd let a few of the enemy into the village before springing the flank long range fire groups to isolate the built up area, and call down the 150mm on top of them. Scout beforehand with the point platoon but either don't press into the village itself, or withdraw when the enemy shows up, to make way for the barrage. While it is falling, creep the main platoons and the 75mm HTs into LOS of the near side and add to the mayhem, area firing at the nearest buildings if other targets can't be seen. When the 150s are done, charge the village with the center infantry. Hold until the end on the far side of the village, with the MG fire and vehicles securing the flanks, etc. Of course the tanks/Jadgs hunt the allied armor throughout.

That is a basic plan for the force type, just to give you an idea of how it is supposed to work. Naturally, variations of terrain and enemy movements will change the actual execution.

[Redwolf]

Hm, Fionn 76, 1250 points, the opponents chose flat map and Allied force, but normal tree covarage.

If the opponent follows a strict plan, I bet he will move in with thick Churchills. One or two long 88 or long 76 are required, IMHO, towed, SP or in a tank. Since he may also have 17 pdr or similar guns, the towed ones might be preferrable. Also AA guns are very useful as long-range anti-gun guns, they work better than mortars. If all fails, the AA guns may try to damage the tanks before their ruin your infantry.

You might face bigass 95mm Churchills dominating the flag area(s), guarded by high-end AT guns behind them. Since he will probably undiscover the Churchills only when you sit on the flags to maximize the damage, it might be a worthwhile tactic for you to do an agressive recon opening to undiscover what he hides in his setup area.

On the other hand, his parameter choice may mean that he simply plans to blast you away with heavy guns, especially 105mm howitzers, maybe Priests and/or by artillery. Buy AA equipment, the raised hit chance means that you usually win duels with normal AT or HE guns.

In any case, there are some clear no-no's for this game:

- do not rush the flags and stay out of buildings in LOS of his setup area. You could as well make holdidays on a Milzbrand island

- be extremly careful with your vehicles, better have vehicles that do recon by catching projectiles. It is questionable that vehicles are good in this situation at all

All this applies only when your opponent is a CM player optimized for points. If both of you are into realistic gameplay, Jason's recommendations sound good, although it is not obvious to me that the halftracks will make it to their destination. I fear they will be hit and the weapons they carry destroyed and -worst- the crews captured.

Anyway, let us know how it goes and what the opponent had!

[Cybeq]

Ok, we're on turn 6. This sure is exciting! Totally different ball of wax from playing the AI. This is what I know so far of his forces: 1 75mm Churchill, 1 Stuart and what I'd estimate to be 2 companies of infantry, both British and American. At turn 1 he rushed up my right flank with >= 2 platoons infantry and a Stuart while simultaneously rushing infantry down the center into the town along with a Churchill. My left flank seems devoid of ememy activity. He owns both VL's! I won't divulge my plans here but comments are welcome. When this is over I'll give all the gory details.

P.S. Even though he said it was no hills we're playing on "gentle slopes"! Questionable tactic, or mere oversite?

[ 07-01-2001: Message edited by: Cybeq ]

[Mr. Johnson--]

Not much diffrence, if he said gentle slopes and gave you mod hills that would be a major oversight.

[Cybeq]

Ok, here's the difference between no hills and gentle slopes: (1) A lack of "hull down" locations and (2) no such thing as "reverse slope" defense. To me this is a major thing. Anyway, the game is over and I surrendered. There were two bright spots in the game. One was when my panzerscheck took out his Stuart with one shot at 164 meters! The other was when I had flanked his Churchill with my StuH42 and had the drop on him at a range of about 200 meters. MY stupid StuH fired smoke instead of HC and the Church wasted me. Live and learn I guess. Turns out a StuH has virtually no chance of getting a kill on a Churchill. I made a few stupid mistakes and lost my ability to go offensive on him. I still had a substantial defensive capability but he had the VL's so I had nothing to defend.

[catnip]

What units did you purchase? Did you buy the Panzer IV/70 in anticipation of the Churchill?

Did you smoke him and then move in your SMGs?

[Cybeq]

Oops, i forgot to mention the important stuff. What I purchased. I bought 2 regular infantry companies, six panzerschrecks, one 81mm mortar FO, one vet sniper, one vet Hetzer, one vet StuH42, one vet Sdkfz (37mm flak), one mg-42 lmg, and umm I think that's it.

My sniper popped his Churchill tank commander on turn 3 or 4. I felt confident I could flank it and did. But with the wrong tank! I used the StuH 42 because it was closer and paid dearly for my mistake. If I wouldn't have made so many mistakes early on I could have held out and possibly pulled a win out of it. Looking back I should have had more arty, less panzerschecks, and definately a PZIV/70. When playing Fionn's Panther 76 the Allied player can buy a Jumbo or a Church. This means a hetzer will have a hard time killing one and a StuH42 doesn't have a chance! I'm learning more playing by E-mail than I ever did playing the AI.

[Mannheim Tanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cybeq:

Oops, i forgot to mention the important stuff. What I purchased. I bought 2 regular infantry companies, six panzerschrecks, one 81mm mortar FO, one vet sniper, one vet Hetzer, one vet StuH42, one vet Sdkfz (37mm flak), one mg-42 lmg, and umm I think that's it.

My sniper popped his Churchill tank commander on turn 3 or 4. I felt confident I could flank it and did. But with the wrong tank! I used the StuH 42 because it was closer and paid dearly for my mistake. If I wouldn't have made so many mistakes early on I could have held out and possibly pulled a win out of it. Looking back I should have had more arty, less panzerschecks, and definately a PZIV/70. When playing Fionn's Panther 76 the Allied player can buy a Jumbo or a Church. This means a hetzer will have a hard time killing one and a StuH42 doesn't have a chance! I'm learning more playing by E-mail than I ever did playing the AI.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it's any consolation, it sounds as if you're opponent had a strange force arrayed against you (I could say "ahistorical", but I'm not sure what you're agreement was on this beforehand). I've never seen an opponent mix Americans and Brits before. Most of your PBEM opponents will most likely do less cherry picking than this guy apparently did.

[Bobcat]

Hello there! 1st let me start by saying it's me(yes, him the cherry picker). Just found this little tread and thought i had better stand up for my CM rights! Gentle slopes or totally flat(why you would even think of playing on totally flat is beyond me), does it really make difference in a 1250pt ME for a village. Anyway i didn't try to trick you and you never wrote and said anything to me about this...OK now for the battle...what i brought to the party was, yes a mixed bag, but lets not get carried away here-it was not that strong! Churchill VII, Sherman M4A3, MMG carrier, and a Stuart. Also for inf. 1 British rifle company and 1 US 44 rifle platoon. And then the assorted support units HMGs and Morters and a 25pd spotter. Map had a small VL on my left, a small 1 in the middle and the large one in the center of town. 1st moves or so i took 2 platoons up to the small VL on my left w/ the stuart. Lost it on move 5. Meanwhile the great tank battle as discussed before by my opponent is taking place in town. Turn 6 he loses his tank and about a platoon of men in an ill fated charge of some buildings. AND THEN TURN 7(out of 30) came to me as a surrender. I had lost the stuart and the sherman and mmg carrier hadn't even fired a bullet yet. GAME OVER. AAR-axis 56 casualties(18KIA) 199 CAPTURED 3 vehicles knocked out(i only shot up 1)-allied 22casualties(5KIA)215men ok. 1 vehicle knocked out. My ? was why give up. He gave me his answer.

[Warmaker]

Hmm... even with the vehicles knocked out, he still had 6 whole Panzerschreck teams. With the Axis suffering moderate casualties I don't think it was enough for the troops to surrender automatically without a player saying so, especially with so many veteran troops.

Anyhow, welcome aboard gentlemen.

[Cybeq]

Hello again, Mr. Bobcat. I just wanted to clarify to everybody about my decision to surrender. I did not surrender on the basis of casualties / lost units alone. I based my decision on my ability to make effective war against my opponent. If I was in possession of the VL's I would not have surrendered as I had enough units to mount a potent defense. But, since Bobcat owned the VL's I needed to push him back. In my mind I simply lacked the horsepower to uproot him. Also, I have an aversion to needless virtual bloodshed. I will accept casualties to a point but I have my limit. I know it's just a game but I try to make it as realistic as possible by ordering my men the same way I would if they were real. It's a limitation I must get over if I am to play effective PBEM games. I made a STUPID mistake by sending that StuH 42 over the hill instead of my Hetzer and it upset me so much I FORGOT to give any orders that turn! I just E-mailed it back to him! That mistake broke my fighting spirit. In retrospect I should not have surrendered. I should have continued to fight on in the spirit of competition. When I meet Bobcat on the battlefield in the future I will give him a better game.