I quit...CM too unrealistic

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Henri:

Henri,

It seems we registered on the forum pretty much at the same time, you're three days my senior to be exact

We seem to have had different experiences though...

Looking back over the years there has been a lot of ups and downs, both among individual posters and on the forums as a whole but throughout it has been my experience that BTS has remained fair, forthcoming and level headed. In fact I think they have been remarkably stringent considering that they, obviously, have human "failings".

"They" get irritated, insulted and frustrated but despite that I have yet to see them really lose their cool, at worst an outburst followed by a deep breath and a clarification. Which says a lot to me considering the tenacity of some of the, few, real piss ants that have crawled by. There has always been a line that has not been crossed, and never have you seen the kind of user interaction displayed by producers like Derek Smart or that, eh, Zabaione fellow over at Atomic.

And, perhaps most importantly, never ever have I seen BTS ridicule or in any way turn away from suggestions that have been put forward in a civilized and open minded way. Question that are obviously based on misconceptions or ignorance have been clarified, questions that have valid game and real life issues have been met and discussed within the framework of what is possible in the CM engine. Again and again and again...

BTS makes a good game, they are not gods of any sort or kind. But fallible as they are I, for one, am impressed by the way they have been holding the fort over the years.

M.

[The_Capt]

Hmm Jack does hit on a few points.

I actually have been forced into a Business Dev and Marketing role in the real world now. And though I have no formal training I have realized that one could teach a panda bear to do the job.

(Fade to TV News Anchor..)

Anchor; Today at San Diego Zoo, a panda was born that had been the product of a Female and Marketing Exec pair. Due to massive inbreeding and influx of ethics both of these species had up until now been on the decline.

But that changed today with the birth of Mooka (Switch to cute cuddly little newborn panda). It is the Hope of the Marketing and World Wildlife Federation that this could be the start of a mutually benificial program which could run well into the next decade.

(New shot..Exec board room, potential clients, two men in dark suits. Marketing team, Mooka and trainer.)

Client Biggie#1; Well to be honest it was Mooka here that got you thru the front door. Her honest approach and..well darn cute looks made the day for us.

Client Biggie#2; But I am afraid that your offer is too rich for our blood. We have decided to go with Smith and Zantar.

(Trainer and Mooka look at each other..Mooka leaps across the table)

Mooka: GROWL!!! (Swipes at Client Biggie #1)

Client Biggie #2; (looking at headless torso) Well..I uh guess we could reconsider. Perhaps we had been to hasty and you do make a solid argument.

Mooka: Growl!!! (Swipe and rolling sound)

Trainer: Damn it Mooka, I told you to wait until the last one signed on the dotted line!!

Ok I am not sure where that came from but back to the question at hand.

BTS is selling a product. They are doing so to make a profit or at least break even.

Last I checked it still costs money to live in the US, especially now that the Republicans are back in, and these guys have to put bread on the table. They also have to keep Madmatt fed and judging by the looks of him that would be a diet of fresh baby (homage to Austin here). Babies do not come cheap and don't ask me how I know.

So unless Steve and gang are living some Grog-Hippie dream of "just doing it for the people man" I think it is safe to say they need to make money at this.

That being said one has to look at the market and then compare it to what they are making.

Now I have not looked deeply into this but my gut feel is that BTS has established a new "overlap" market. This is one which draws from two or more "pools of custormer groups". Close Combat kinda did this first by creating an RTS wargame. You get the twitchies and the some of the grogs so twice the market.

CM hooked into the hardcore wargame market as well as the more mainstream turn based strategy crowd with introduction of a simple interface and 3D graphics. Hence a game in which more than just 34 nerds living in Mom's basement will in fact buy.

They have managed to grab two markets and hence widen their market base.

So when you talk new products you have to go back to just what you are aiming at in terms of market and then compare it to the resources you have to apply to actually produce the thing.

So an Op overlay game. With all of the campaign bells and whistles that money can buy. I am not even going to guess at development time but I would hazard it is more than a weekend. Now who is going to buy it?

Well again you are going to grab people from a couple of markets but these are of the more hardcore variety. People who do not have a lot of time may not really go for the big overlay game. Plus these are the same people who are going to buy the damn CMBB without the Overlay. So what we are really talking about is keeping or capturing people who won't buy CMBB because it doesn't have a larger Campaign game on top of it.

Now is this crowd large enough to justify spending the extra time and money. Again my guess is no. Plus competition is starting to build speed and some of these developers are going to sell out to the big boys who have deep pockets. They are going to have the ability to flood the market and start eating into BTS's share.

So what have Steve and gang done. Well they partnered up with people producing Strategic and Operational games, so they keep a hand in the game. Then they have focused on staying ahead of the curve at the Tactical Level. If they fail to do that a fancy Operational Overlay won't save them at the end of the day. Tactical is their Vital Ground.

Now what I am betting Steve and Company would be willing and hell may even be planning is to teamup with another small company and have them develop an Op Overlay game in tandem but this may have to wait until CM2 due to technical conflicts. If they can have someone share the risk and not lose ground at the Tactical Level they can cement an even better product but not at the cost of the current one. And by then the heat of the competition would make such a move neccessary

But right now they are out in front and I really can't see the sense in making a game for 5 or 6 people.

Just a few thought from your resident marketing slimeball.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by karch:

...I mean, this game really sucks but we all play it because it's the best one out there...

I agree, CM sucks. We all play it because it's software heroin. We are simply all addicted.

Maybe CM has a lot of 'errors' and problems. But damn - if your wive is ugly, but talented, just turn off the light and have fun!

[Dirtweasle]

CMBO - Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord is a 1-2 player, turn-based, simultaneous execution 3D simulation of WWII tactical warfare.

Would it be nice to have an operational layer in some flavor? Oh my yes! Having said that - I still cannot recall any game, except maybe my first chess board, that has been better money spent.

[Tarquelne]

Fortunately there is an objective verification of this: just go to the Uncommon Valor forum on matrixgames and look at a new thread with the words "fed up" in the title,

I looked.

very similar in tone to the one opening this thread here,

I think not. If you really found the tone "similar" then I understand why you've had a difficult time here. I even found the content significatly different, in that the UV post failed to blame Matrix for UV's shortcomings.

I also noticed a poster in that thread state, in apparent contridiction to your stance, that the board has "occasional flare ups." From what I've seen, that's exactly what the CM forum has.

A tolerant attitude is not a fault.

I'd praise the posters here for invariably reacting politely no matter the provocation. I won't fault them for failing to do so.

[Slapdragon]

My major complaint is the complete lack of modelling for flatulence in the game. Flatulence effects all soldiers because of the poor food they consume, effecting accuracy, causing fellow soldiers to become casualties, and giving away positions to the enemy. I have never heard an audio track with a fart in it at all. Lots of damn bird, but no good crack butt horns.

I suspect BTS, especially Steve, are just out to screw us all by ignoring how human produced gas effects the battlefield. Every unit should have a "flatula" level that acts like a morale level, and effects all aspects of the unit's performance. Plus there should be a chance for a "critical injury" from flatulence in enclosed places. Imagine this -- the commander of a tank is standing in the turret and lights one off right into the face of the loader and gunner. This could conceivably wound or kill both men, and possibly cause the fuel or ammo to go off. The unit can break from stench, and would then need to rally. Of course, there is no way the author of the stench will effect a rally, so it will have to be a non-farting member of a higher echelon.

[Nukem]

Originally posted by Henri:

Finally here is a question: why is it that the SPWaW forum and other matrix forums are free of the flame wars that sporadically appear here? My view is that the reason resides in the intolerance here to those who do not line up with a certain orthodoxy.

Come off it mate. As a veteran of many FPS/RTS/Other 'twitch' game forums I was pleasantly surprised to find a forum with so many friendly, tolerant and intelligent individuals, who, bar a few bad eggs who are normally swiftly dealt with anyway, are gladly prepared to enter into reasoned debate over any topic under the sun. This forum does BTS and battlefront.com credit.

Flame wars are normally created precisely by the sort of troll-like comments I have quoted above. Oh and also by people who name their threads 'CM too unrealistic' just to provoke a response.

Nac4 the tone of your post seems to imply that BTS owe you something. Let me tell you that BTS owe you squat. They have gone out of their way, at presumably high financial risk and with minimal resources and manpower, to make a game which brings enjoyment to thousands of people. And also happens to redefine the very concepts of what we believed was possible with wargaming. CM:BO is a labour of love not some money grabbing exercise and with that in mind, I think you should at least have the decency to critiscise them in a mature and intelligent manner, rather than ranting on about topics which have already been decided a long time ago and failing to even comply to the etiquette of the English language.

If BTS don't want to develop a full-on campaign game that is up to them(and from the comments Steve has made it looks to me like if a 3rd party got their act together then maybe some compromise could be reached). If you don't like it don't buy CM:BB or alternatively write your own game. Simple as that really, just don't come on the forums ranting and raving at BTS and patronising the common forum-goer.

[Nukem]

Originally posted by Slapdragon:

My major complaint is the complete lack of modelling for flatulence in the game. Flatulence effects all soldiers because of the poor food they consume, effecting accuracy, causing fellow soldiers to become casualties, and giving away positions to the enemy. I have never heard an audio track with a fart in it at all. Lots of damn bird, but no good crack butt horns.

I suspect BTS, especially Steve, are just out to screw us all by ignoring how human produced gas effects the battlefield. Every unit should have a "flatula" level that acts like a morale level, and effects all aspects of the unit's performance. Plus there should be a chance for a "critical injury" from flatulence in enclosed places. Imagine this -- the commander of a tank is standing in the turret and lights one off right into the face of the loader and gunner. This could conceivably wound or kill both men, and possibly cause the fuel or ammo to go off. The unit can break from stench, and would then need to rally. Of course, there is no way the author of the stench will effect a rally, so it will have to be a non-farting member of a higher echelon.

Damn that is funny!

[Tripps]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

[QB]Tripp, I dont really think that comment is fair on the forum members here.

mate, hence why I said "some"!!

i didnt mean to give any offense there, so please dont take any!

Anyways, i reckon Nac4 is peeved cos you guys have made an awesome game, and i guess when you make something as original and addictive as this, he wants more (operational).

if you create genius, thats the level thats expected for all future endeavors, bad luck BTS!

my original post was merely to state some of the replies were worse than the thread starter, maybe ppl are sick of the topic, i dunno, but sinking to that level degenerates everything

my thinkin is i would love an operational level as well, if it isnt going to be implemented, ah well, i'll go masturbate about it for a while

cheers

[Tripps]

Originally posted by Nukem:

" Let me tell you that BTS owe you squat. They have gone out of their way, at presumably high financial risk and with minimal resources and manpower, to make a game which brings enjoyment to thousands of people. "

yeah, thats the crux, they have done it once to create CMBO on a tactical level, so Nac4 expects them to do it again on a op level.

ahhh sucks to be BTS

[Goanna]

Oooooo, a marketing slimeball. Now why didn't you say that from the get go. Back to the Pool with you Capt, as I believe you have found yourself a sponsor.

Now Henri, let's not assume that those of us that have been around here a while and don't post like 15 year olds on mom's diet pills are all sycophants for Steve and the rest of the BTS team. Some of us even disagree with them when they start spouting off in our bailiwick. However, most of us are just relatively silent (like mom instructed us to be) when the discussion is in an area where we couldn't find our ass with both hands and a road map. You want to talk environmental law and engineering, count on a response from this lizard. But on programming and war history, I defer to my more experienced acquaintances. So, please, don’t come into a forum that you have by your own admission not frequented for a year and call me and a lot of the other silent majority lickspittles. I don’t plan to lap up CMBB as soon as it is available no matter the cost. Instead, I plan to make a standard value-for-money judgement when spending my hard earned dollar and if CMBB fits the bill.

If you think Steve and the rest of BTS have gained some sort of unquestioning support for their product or ideas, you are sadly mistaken. They have, however, demonstrated a lot more personal service, dedication and listening skills than the vast majority of vendors of products that I have purchased in my lifetime, and not just software companies. If BTS start making crap, or simple map and skin mods for different geographical locations, I will stop buying. But I’ll still host them to a pint at my local based on their previous work.

[M. Bates]

Nac4's opening post seems reasonable enough to me, despite the lack of paragraph spacings.

Nac4 only became a bit silly in tone after the smug and convulsive replies by Cpt Wacky, karch, etc etc.

I'd question whether unfounded allegations about Nac4's posting history are especially relevant to his argument about CM's mission structure or his slightly abrasive posting style.

[Captain Wacky]

Originally posted by M. Bates:

Nac4's opening post seems reasonable enough to me, despite the lack of paragraph spacings.

Nac4 only became a bit silly in tone after the smug and convulsive replies by Cpt Wacky, karch, etc etc.

Roight straight! If it weren't for guys like me the forum might turn into one big Disney tea party circle jerk. There's enough people who take themselves too seriously around here anyway

[ May 28, 2002, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Captain Wacky ]

[zukkov]

well i have to say one thing for ole nac, he sure knows how to post in a way to raise some eyebrows! but the worst thing he did was to get the bts team out of their programming mode and into the post responding mode! let this be the last post on this thread so bts can get back to work!

[Moon]

Actually, we've moved on back to work a couple of pages earlier already. But these are great last words, and as it seems everything that had to be said has been said, I'm locking this up and putting it to rest. This isn't to shut anybody up, just to prevent this thread from going downhill from here.