Soviet use of Cannister??

[c3k]

Gents,

I have not downloaded the CMBB demo on my paltry 56k modem. Alas for me. But I am reading many accounts of CMBB giving the Soviets cannister ammunition. I am not an all-knowing grog, but I've never heard that the Soviets had/used cannister in any quantities. Can someone (more all-knowing and grog-like) elaborate on this subject? Sources, production, calibers, etc. The usual. Thanks.

Ken

[tabpub]

I agree. I have never heard of a cannister round for the Russian 76mm gun; either in reading or in playing various simulations, either computer based or miniature based. I am wondering what the rationale(read documentation) was for the inclusion of such a round.

[Chad Harrison]

Never heard of it either. But it is cool.

[tabpub]

Originally posted by Chad Harrison:

Never heard of it either. But it is cool.

A HoverTank from "Hammer's Slammer's" is cool also, but I don't think it should be included in the final version of CMBB either. :cool:

[rune]

However, the 76mm DID have a shrapnel round. I see no problem using the cannister animation to double for the delay explosion and shrapnel. Also, 45mm and below they had the traditional cannister round. Someone posted the rounds in an earlier thread.

Edited, found a nice picture of the shrapnel round.

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Base/1852/AppendixA.html

Rune

[ September 09, 2002, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: rune ]

[Tanaka]

Originally posted by tabpub:

I agree. I have never heard of a cannister round for the Russian 76mm gun...

If it is there, I think it is, then it existed and was used... You can bet on it

[Cardinal Fang]

Originally posted by tabpub:

I agree. I have never heard of a cannister round for the Russian 76mm gun; either in reading or in playing various simulations, either computer based or miniature based. I am wondering what the rationale(read documentation) was for the inclusion of such a round.

I'm not a grog. Well, I thought I was until I started lurking here. Then I discovered that I was at best a "Grog-Lite". However I did just recently purchase "Russian Tanks Of World War II (Stalin's Armored Might)" by Tim Bean and Will Fowler. ISBN 0-7603-1302-4

I was surprised when it gives the load out of the T-34 as:

19 rounds of BR-350A AP, 53 F-354 or OF-350 HE rounds, and 5 SH-350 rounds of cannister.

So there's at least some documentation for you!

I was surprised by three things. First that there was such a large difference between the number of AP rounds and the number of HE rounds carried. Second that they carried cannister normally. And Third that there was no mention of smoke rounds. Then again my knowledge of Russian armor wouldn't even qualify me for "Lite Grog-Lite" which is why I bought the book in the first place!

Cardinal Fang

Nobody Expects The Spanish Inquisition!

[gunnergoz]

Cardinal Fang-

Regarding ratios of ammo types carried, think here of what the strategic planners were anticipating when they devised basic load data for the forces in the field.

This ration tells me that whoever devised it, anticipated the tank would mostly be used in an anti-infantry or anti-soft target mode, with AT fire secondary and close-in fighting against infantry as a third possibility.

So I figure, they were thinking that the tanks would first be putting down suppresive fires on AT postions, Support guns and MG nests; next the tanks would engage any enemy armor that showed itself in response to the attack (don't forget armor was usually held in reserve in defensive situartions); finally, once the main line of resistance had been breached, the tanks would be dealing with remaining infantry and gun crews, reeeeely close!

That's my assumption, anyway.

[Guest SnarkerII]

I found a sight listing the type of ammo for some of the 76mm. Scroll down and look for "Case shot" (cannister). http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_76_4.html

[tabpub]

Originally posted by rune:

However, the 76mm DID have a shrapnel round. I see no problem using the cannister animation to double for the delay explosion and shrapnel. Also, 45mm and below they had the traditional cannister round. Someone posted the rounds in an earlier thread.

Rune

Tim,

If it is subbing in for the shrapnel round then possibly OK, although I don't believe that the shrapnel shell was all that effective either due to difficulties in timing. I see later posts that list the canister(case-shot) round as part of the ammo list for the gun. I don't debate that the ammo existed! It is the efficacy and usage in actual situations that I find to be lacking. I have never read(or heard) an account that says "our canister round really put the hurt on the Germans today" or anything like that. I would propose that the round was in existance, but rarely, if ever used. Much like the famed "canister" round for the 18" gun on the Yamato(as an extreme example).

Now, maybe I am relying to much on second hand sources, i.e. previous work in the field of simulation, but I don't believe that something of this magnitude would have been overlooked by so many others in the field. However, I am willing to be enlightened by some new information if it is presented.

Thanks.

[ September 09, 2002, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: tabpub ]

[rune]

Well we overwhelmed his web page. It has a nice picture of the shell and the shell cut away. Basically a timed fused shell that would explode into shrapnel [bullet?]for anti-infantry work. The shell was common in WWII and also used by North Korea in that war.

Rune

[Foreigner]

During the war, the Soviet tanks did use up twice as many HE rounds as AP rounds... for what it's worth

[Guest SnarkerII]

Originally posted by tabpub:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rune:

However, the 76mm DID have a shrapnel round. I see no problem using the cannister animation to double for the delay explosion and shrapnel. Also, 45mm and below they had the traditional cannister round. Someone posted the rounds in an earlier thread.

Rune

Tim,

If it is subbing in for the shrapnel round then possibly OK, although I don't believe that the shrapnel shell was all that effective either due to difficulties in timing. I see later posts that list the canister(case-shot) round as part of the ammo list for the gun. I don't debate that the ammo existed! It is the efficacy and usage in actual situations that I find to be lacking. I have never read(or heard) an account that says "our canister round really put the hurt on the Germans today" or anything like that. I would propose that the round was in existance, but rarely, if ever used. Much like the famed "canister" round for the 18" gun on the Yamato(as an extreme example).

Now, maybe I am relying to much on second hand sources, i.e. previous work in the field of simulation, but I don't believe that something of this magnitude would have been overlooked by so many others in the field. However, I am willing to be enlightened by some new information if it is presented.

Thanks.</font>

[c3k]

So far we've gained some facts, but nothing to show or prove/assume the Soviets USED Cannister.

Okay, the shrapnel round existed. Some bureaucrat even had a plan for a tank load out. But then, bureaucrats throughout history have always had plans. Did the troops ever see the round? If so, how many?

Okay, let's say they had 'em (shrapnel rounds actually in the tanks' ammo racks). I'd imagine a shrapnel round, with a timer manually set by the loader, would basically suck. Yeah, that's right. I bet they'd mis-set it, so it would explode too late, at best resembling a normal high explosive round.

Again, notwithstanding the great replies so far, did the Soviets actually have a cannister round?

Let's also add in the question about the shrapnel round (shown to have existed): were they used? How many were issued, etc.

C'mon grogs, stop hiding.

Thanks,

Ken

[c3k]

Gents,

Another thought, which also acts as a nice *bump* for this thread which I've started, is the intended use for the shrapnel rounds.

It seems (cursory examination only) that all the shrapnel rounds seem to've been produced for anti-aircraft caliber weapons. This would be a standard shrapnel use. Given Soviet production abilities/methods, tactics, etc., I'd be surprised if the shrapnel rounds were used versus ground targets.

There is a large difference between shrapnel rounds and cannister rounds. Does CMBB account for this?

Again, can anyone show Soviet USE of either shrapnel or cannister?

Thanks,

Ken

[Bastables]

Originally posted by c3k:

Gents,

It seems (cursory examination only) that all the shrapnel rounds seem to've been produced for anti-aircraft caliber weapons. This would be a standard shrapnel use. Given Soviet production abilities/methods, tactics, etc., I'd be surprised if the shrapnel rounds were used versus ground targets.

Unless you've found a previously unknown 7,62cm anti aircraft gun that's pretty specious reasoning. (Gahhh there is two of them 1931 and 1938 versions although why one would use cannister rounds on aircraft with their short range is beyond me)

The Nahverteidigungswaffe and the USA anti tank rifle grenade are other weapons with an apparent lack of information that made it into CM. I know it's trying to prove a negative but since BTS has it included it behoves you disprove BTS assertion that the Russians used "canister" rounds.

[ September 09, 2002, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[rune]

Here is the proof:

Hi!

Somebody asked me about effeciency of Soviet shrapnel rounds.

Here you are some data for the Soviet 76-mm Shrapnel Round Sh-354. The round consisted of ~260 bullets, each bullet 12.7-mm calibre and weight 10.7 gramme. The effective hitting area* calculated as:

width - 20 metres;

deepness - depended of a height and range (see the table below):

Height of explosion, m 2 5 10 16 28

Range, m 1,000 2,000 3,000 4,000 5,000

Hitting deepness, m 300 290 280 270 260

*Note: Effective Hitting Area means 90% probability of hitting any uncovered target at given range.

From Valera. It was an anti-infantry type weapon.

Rune

[rune]

Correction, the round is more like case shot as previous mentioned. Also from Valera:

I asked Soviet tankers, they told me they didn't use shrapnel at all, while case-shot used quite often. Vets said C-S ammo was deadly for any advancing infantry, much more effective then common HE ammo. C-S ammo used mostly in defensive actions and ambushes.

Mentioned shrepnel and case-shot rounds used for Soviet 76-mm field guns:

F-22

F-22 USV

ZIS-3

Also, case-shot round used for KV-1, KV-1S, and T-34-76 tanks: 4-8 rounds per tank

Rune

[c3k]

C'mon Rune, is that the BEST you could do? I thought you were a grog? Sheeesh.

Okay, so case-shot (essentially identical to cannister for game purposes) WAS used? Shrapnel was not?

How many total rounds produced and at what points during the war? Were they used universally, or only for assaults, etc?

A grog would know........

Thanks,

Ken

[tabpub]

< crunch, crunch, could you pass the tabasco? > sound of me eating my favorite Cub hat, size 7 5/8, after reading the following:

Originally posted by rune:

Correction, the round is more like case shot as previous mentioned. Also from Valera:

I asked Soviet tankers, they told me they didn't use shrapnel at all, while case-shot used quite often. Vets said C-S ammo was deadly for any advancing infantry, much more effective then common HE ammo. C-S ammo used mostly in defensive actions and ambushes.

Mentioned shrepnel and case-shot rounds used for Soviet 76-mm field guns:

F-22

F-22 USV

ZIS-3

Also, case-shot round used for KV-1, KV-1S, and T-34-76 tanks: 4-8 rounds per tank

Rune

I guess you learn something every day, until you die....and then you learn what death really is....

[Michael Emrys]

I would expect that it would be difficult to get accurate shrapnel fire from a high velocity flat trajectory cannon. Much easier from a low velocity high angle howitzer.

Michael

[MikeyD]

You've heard it before but I'll say it again.

Never underestimate the guys at Battlefront when it comes to historical accuracy. If you think something doesn't feel quite right (45mm gun effectiveness for example) chances are the problem's with your preceptions rather than with their data. CMBO was a good accurate game, CMBB is a work of scholarship in comparison. These guys are simply amazing.

[Grisha]

This was discussed earlier in this thread(click).

Amazing what we in the west have yet to learn about this war. For example, I never heard of a shaped-charge anti-tank grenade until about a year ago, but Soviet were making them, complete with a stabilization mechanism so that once it was thrown the grenade would hit head first. That's what the tank hunter teams in the Citadel scenario are using along with molotov cocktails. They were called RPG-43s

[rune]

The L-11 used many types of shrapnel and case shot. The following page lists them all:

http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/defin_4.html

Rune

[Chad Harrison]

Wow, this is all news to me. Thanks for the great information and links. I was always under the impression that canister was seen only in the PTO. And my wife thinks that I dont learn anything here I just hope they have WWII shot types on Jepordy some day!

Chad