Who Is This Man, Swamp?

[Col Deadmarsh]

52 consecutive wins. I have to say, I'm impressed. So what's his secret to winning? Has anyone here broken down his strategy and figured out how one man can win 52 straight games in CM? I can't for the life of me figure out how someone can do this in this particular game given the amount of luck that's involved. Surely, luck has swung in his oppositions' favor a number of times during his battles and yet he has still managed to win.

Does anyone have any theories on how this can be? I keep hearing about great infantry and arty tactics. Can anyone confirm this?

Anyway, my hat's off to this guy. I'm dying to play him just to see these legendary tactics.

[Gyrene]

He hangs out in the CMHQ chat room. Go find out for yourself.

Gyrene

[Panzer_Meyer]

I fought him twice, first time I fought him, I beat him, though it was not for the ladder, so he might of went easier on me.

Second time it was for the ladder, he beat me, in a good way.

If you want to see how he wins and beat the crap out of people 52X in a row, fight him yourself. Best way to learn is to see how he fights, I highly recommend it!

[Stixx]

Damn 52 wins straight!

Got to give the guy credit, that is better than luck or plain skill that is truly something extrodinary.

Congrats mate!

[Porajkl]

The Great Book of Truth speaks of a man, taller than pine, stronger than bear, vicious as hijeena and more cunning than fox. This man wanders in desert, seeks the knowledge and fights the undead. And one day this man will prevail the evil Master Swamp. The ground will be shaking like never before, birds will fall down from the sky, screeching in agony at the battle rage. But the outome is inevitable. The Man will win.

But the world has not known yet of the Man, the chosen one. Is he a CombatGeneral? Is he one of you? The prophecy awaits to accomplish...

[Ligur]

I think very possibly CombatGeneral... Yes...

[Holien]

It is possible and he is a very competent player who knows the angles of the game.

I look forward to giving him a game sometime, as I might be able to break the streak.

First I have to build my house and finish the Wild Bill Tourney, if I get through to the next round that is.

I think there was a discussion thread on some of the tactics used by players awhile back. That thread was a good guide to how games can be won. If I can find it I will attach it here.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=017665

Mind you, it has to be remembered that winning is not everything, life is just a voyage of experiences and those can be gained even by losing.

H

P.s. I have attached the thread as it describes some tactics and discusses them. I do not ascribe these to Swamps style of play as I have never played him.

[ February 06, 2002, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Holien ]

[xerxes]

Getting that kind of streak depends on being extremely good at the game. Swamp's obviously one of the best CM players in the world. That kind of streak also depends on playing under limited circumstances. I think Swamp's primarily a TCP/IP/player pick/QB/ME player. Player pick QBs have a strong structure to them. Not to take anything away from his skill, but that type of streak playing scenarios would be virtually impossible to achieve.

And yes, I'm sure he could easily and reliably beat me at a TCP/IP/QB/player pick/ME.

-marc

[Ligur]

There are players, in every game, who master the winning tricks built within the game system. That is, they might avoid playing scenarios/games that are suicidal or offer a good chance of losing. Don't take it as dissing, I am 100% sure Swamp would beat me any day, any time, with even forces. And still beat me even as the underdog. And in any other setting. Hell, I haven't even played 52 games against human opponents.

Me raises a hat to Swamp. It is a mind boggling achievement to so consistently win a game that is so dependent on Lady Luck and the often unfair fortunes of war.

[CMplayer]

So anyone care to describe his playing style?

[Jeb]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

So anyone care to describe his playing style?

Well, I've played Swamp a fair amount at Tournament house, and he's damn hard to beat, without a doubt. For the most part he buys as much infantry and artillery as he possibly can within the purchase limits. He tends not to buy too much armor at all, as he doesn't need to.

That's really about it. Swamp is without a doubt one of the most skilled players there is when playing a QB. It's not just MEs, either. He'll play attacks and defenses too. I agree though that 52 in a row is just amazing. I might have to get back to tournament house and see if he wants to go for 53

[jwxspoon]

Swamp is an excellent player. I consider myself a mid range player, about average probably, and the three games I have played against him were not even close.

Swamp has a firm grasp of both infantry and armored tactics. His use of artillery is masterful, the best I've ever seen in my 150 games of multiplayer CM. He keeps his infantry moving all the time, making it very difficult to catch them in one place to pound them.

In my last game with him he chased and close assaulted a Jumbo Sherman with regular infantry - I mean chased as in over 100 meters backward before my tank was backed up against a wodline. Why was my tank unsupported, you say? It wasn't, it's just that my two platoons of supporting infantry were busy recovering from two turns of on target heavy german mortar fire (carefully coordinated ith the advance of his infantry and the eventual demise of my Jumbo).

He's fun to play against. He will make you a better player, will not rub your nose in it unless you are an ass, and will help you if you ask as to what you could have done different.

JW

[jshandorf]

It's obvious why he is so good, he sold his black hearted soul to the demonspawn that resides below. He is evil. Pure concentrated evil. Think that back sooty rock at the end of "Time Bandits" evil.

Jeff

[Gyrene]

He's no CombatGenital.

Gyrene

[Priest]

I am working on a streak also!

Speaking of which Stix I need to raise the streak, we playing later this week???

So far it far less prestigious than Swamps but that is because Stix has limited time!

(dude I am just kidding, someone move this damn post to the PENG thread by God!)

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

So anyone care to describe his playing style?

That can be answered together with how he manages to escape bad luck. His play and unit selection style changed noticable over the last year, so take everything said as independent of one person.

He does not rely on vehicles or other units that are costly but can be taken out with single shots. He may have some HE support tanks or some tank hunters, but they are kept at a minimum, he does not rely on them.

So, if your dice rools 5 times in a game and everytime you get the bad number, and you have vehicles, you lose 5 vehicles, which will doom you. For an infantry force, the dice has to roll -say- 20 times bad in a row to damage your force into defeat, which will happen much less often.

So he has a constant base to play on, his games are as far as his forces are concerned constant, and that allows him to gain experience. And means experience with very high reuse value. And *many* games.

On top of that, this force can play in most conditions but extremly open terrain (in that case towed guns will play their role). Bad visibility, mud, no problem. Not only is it not a problem, he can reuse and further finetune the handling of this force.

So is imitating him a good idea if you want to be on the top of that ladder? I'd say no, since there is no way to offset his experience. It also makes few sense, since to get to the top, you need high probability of win, and overwhelming wins. Getting the points to raise from the middle field to the top 10 is probably better done by taking some risks. Better some losses taken if they enable many high-score victories. Only when you are on top, you should consider changing to a no-loss policy. Of course, you will screw up when you change tactics, but only temporarily.

Compare him with Ghost358th, the second on the ladder. He always takes fancy stuff and blows people to hell with lots of towed guns (and can lose by getting a bad map) or enjoys the hell out of the barbequeue that a platoon of Wasps makes reinforced by airborne Churchill VIII (and can lose to 20mm halftracks and a Schreck). Ghost loses against rather average players from time to time, and he won't have such a win streak as Swamp. But on the whole he collects an awful lot of points from players who are completely caught off balance.

Overall, playing CMBO like this is somewhat like bow-shooting: first you need to stabilize everything related to your performance, don't care about what you hit, as long as you always hit the same point. Only then, try to improve it, while keeping it stable.

[ February 06, 2002, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[windstarz]

I have played Swamp a couple of times and he annilated me. Like was said before he has the most accurate artillery there is. He is the master of artillery. He only used infantry against me. He brings them in real tight and overwhelms you . He usually has you very softened up after his artillery barrages. I haven't been by TH in a while so he might have refined his tactics even more by now but he is very friendly and will tell you what you could have done different. For a guy that hardly ever loses he doenst rub it in.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CMplayer:

So anyone care to describe his playing style?

That can be answered together with how he manages to escape bad luck. His play and unit selection style changed noticable over the last year, so take everything said as independent of one person.

He does not rely on vehicles or other units that are costly but can be taken out with single shots. He may have some HE support tanks or some tank hunters, but they are kept at a minimum, he does not rely on them.

So, if your dice rools 5 times in a game and everytime you get the bad number, and you have vehicles, you lose 5 vehicles, which will doom you. For an infantry force, the dice has to roll -say- 20 times bad in a row to damage your force into defeat, which will happen much less often.

So he has a constant base to play on, his games are as far as his forces are concerned constant, and that allows him to gain experience. And means experience with very high reuse value. And *many* games.

On top of that, this force can play in most conditions but extremly open terrain (in that case towed guns will play their role). Bad visibility, mud, no problem. Not only is it not a problem, he can reuse and further finetune the handling of this force.

So is imitating him a good idea if you want to be on the top of that ladder? I'd say no, since there is no way to offset his experience. It also makes few sense, since to get to the top, you need high probability of win, and overwhelming wins. Getting the points to raise from the middle field to the top 10 is probably better done by taking some risks. Better some losses taken if they enable many high-score victories. Only when you are on top, you should consider changing to a no-loss policy. Of course, you will screw up when you change tactics, but only temporarily.

Compare him with Ghost358th, the second on the ladder. He always takes fancy stuff and blows people to hell with lots of towed guns (and can lose by getting a bad map) or enjoys the hell out of the barbequeue that a platoon of Wasps makes reinforced by airborne Churchill VIII (and can lose to 20mm halftracks and a Schreck). Ghost loses against rather average players from time to time, and he won't have such a win streak as Swamp. But on the whole he collects an awful lot of points from players who are completely caught off balance.

Overall, playing CMBO like this is somewhat like bow-shooting: first you need to stabilize everything related to your performance, don't care about what you hit, as long as you always hit the same point. Only then, try to improve it, while keeping it stable.</font>

[Tero]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Still, I cannot fathom how infantry-heavy forces can be effective on a map with anything less than medium trees. After all, if you are the kind of player which relies on your infantry taking over an area, you have to be able to move mass amounts of infantry to a spot without being shot up in the process.

I have a theory.

You can do that if you work the system (in a positive manner). For one the map lack debth. Use that to your advantage. Select a route that gives you best possibility to use LR suppression against the defender. Punch through at the point of your choosing instead of trying to outflank the defences. More often than not the defender has to react and start moving the assets around which in turn denies them the benefit of foxholes etc.

Also, you make sure you get a force with minimal or small movement delays (5-8 sec or so). And you keep moving. Bunching them is not YOUR problem if you get them out of the focus of an OBA barrage. By bunching up you also inundate the enemy with multiple targets. Getting suppressed is not major a problem as you have all units under CC at all times.

You obtain local superiority and overcome defender piece meal. Seems Mr Swamp has read his Sun Tsu and Clausewits.

Usually, this is done through suppressing fire from one's own support. Now, if you don't have any of this, then you'd have to rely on arty to do the work. But how many turns of arty does one have in a game? Not much. Even if you maxed out all your points, I can't see it being enough to carry you throughout the game, especially if you use a portion of that on arty big enough to break your opponent (i.e.--larger than 81mm.)

That is not relevant. What is relevant is the OBA delay. Disregarding TRP's (and you make sure the type of battle denies them from your opponent ) the Ami 81mm has a 58sec delay while the German will have a minumum of 1min delay. And a bunched up infantry force can run far in 60 secs. The max time underfire you risk is indeed not more than a few turns. Furthermore, if you manage to get the force under a barrage all is not lost the barrage intensity "favours" bunched up forces. If you survive (which is more likely than not) it the enemy is up **** creek. With no OBA left to boot. Outch time !

It's questions like these that makes this strategy all the more perplexing in regards to how effective it's supposed to be.

His tactics and strategies sound familiar. And out of place. More like Somme, 1916 than Caen, 1944.

[ February 07, 2002, 04:11 AM: Message edited by: tero ]

[Stixx]

Originally posted by Priest:

I am working on a streak also!

Speaking of which Stix I need to raise the streak, we playing later this week???

Well i don't know who is "playing" but i plan on burying everyone of your guys in those bloody craters you are making all over the battlefield!

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Very interesting post Redwolf. You make a good point about infantry lessening your chances of luck losing the game for you. Still, I cannot fathom how infantry-heavy forces can be effective on a map with anything less than medium trees. After all, if you are the kind of player which relies on your infantry taking over an area, you have to be able to move mass amounts of infantry to a spot without being shot up in the process. Usually, this is done through suppressing fire from one's own support. Now, if you don't have any of this, then you'd have to rely on arty to do the work. But how many turns of arty does one have in a game? Not much. Even if you maxed out all your points, I can't see it being enough to carry you throughout the game, especially if you use a portion of that on arty big enough to break your opponent (i.e.--larger than 81mm.)

It's questions like these that makes this strategy all the more perplexing in regards to how effective it's supposed to be.[/QB]

Guns. If the map doesn't have much cover, you use guns to shoop up the enemy armor and then have infantry superiority. If the enemy did not choose tanks, you don't have the problem anyway.

Also, we are talking maxed out infantry. You get enough squads that you can literally push tanks all over the map into a corner and then kill them at acceptable losses, at least with Faust-equipped Germans. Bazookas and PIATs are fairly fast, too. The MGs on the tanks are just too weak in CMBO to assist the main gun in self-defense against multiple targets. If you look up the "infantry vs. all arms" thread a few weeks ago, you see that even an infantry-inapt player like me can nail all tanks on a map given sufficient infantry.

I wouldn't say Swamp relies on artillery to take ground. He uses it to prevent you from massing your own infantry into anything that can hurt his infantry lines (which are comparibly thin and have few flank security). More often than not, he empties the artillery in the last turns just to collect points, after holding it back all game.

[Ligur]

Sorry, this question must be stupid etc.

But what ladder are you guys talking about? Where do Swamp and the Ghost guy play?

[Gen-x87H]

Swamp is a master of his domain.

I have played him in the past. He somehow finds a way to drop his arty right on your attacking force. Then scurries his counterattack in before you can drop arty on him.

On time I massed for an attack. with 2 companies of brit paras, like 8 HTs 2 cromwells, and 2 fireflies.

I was behind a hill and ran into a toon of his men. I overran the position with just 1 platoon and a HT support. Then came in the 120mortars. It decimated my force. Router basically the whole thing, knocked out almost all of my HTs, then a combination of guns and PZIV(70)s killed the remaining armor that was scurrying around trying to get out of the arty barage.

That left me with 1 company of troops in the center with a few MGs for support. Now how am I supposed to challenge for the flags with remnants of my force that?

I asked for and recieved a withdrawl. I am better than I was then but do I think I could beat Swamp?

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Gen

[ February 07, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Gen-x87H ]

[Gen-x87H]

But what ladder are you guys talking about? Where do Swamp and the Ghost guy play? "

tournamenthouse.com/cm

Some of the best players I have ever seen are on that ladder.

Gen

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by Ligur:

Sorry, this question must be stupid etc.

But what ladder are you guys talking about? Where do Swamp and the Ghost guy play?

There's 2 ladders at Tournament House. Some of us, like myself, play on the CAL ladder there. It's a more realistic unit selection that prevents "working the system."

The ladder Swamp is on is the reguar ladder over there where anything goes.