Prinz Eugen Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: 39 points, three 15mm MGs, lower rarity than the M17... Budda budda kercheng...Three 15 mm MGs ? :confused: Are they really 15 mm ? I know these guns were used in fighters, but in SPWs as well ? Nasty ! Oh my ! What a resourceful nation the Germans were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Old 20mm vs. MG discussion. It includes some tests, albeit against CMBO MG42s. Here's what BTS had to say at the time: Madmatt: You guys apparently have been watching SPR too much. A cannon has MUCH slower ROF and shell velocity than the MG42. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the results here. The blast rating of the 20MM is around the same as that of a grenade and against a fast moving and dodging infantry sized target it is not easy to achieve accurate fire. With a MG you can pretty much spray and pray and still achieve good results. Cannons are good against large targets (vehicle/plane size) and slow moving or stationary concentrations of troops. It also gives a pretty capable anti-armor punch as well as it's intended Anti-Air defense role. You are comparing apples and oranges here. The key here is in the rate of fire and distance between men in a squad being engaged. A MG42 can spit out literally hundreds of rounds in a few seconds (based on between 1200-1500 rounds per minute cyclic rate) while the 20mm is only getting at best a little under 1/2 that amount (assuming between 350-700 rpm and IIRC they aren't firing anywhere near that rate in the game for the most part). While the cannon rounds explode it is doubtful that a single rounds explosion would injure more than one man in a squad using proper combat spread. Obviously a cannon shell will cause greater damage to the target but the end result in the game is same, an incapcitated man. So, all things being equal, in the same stretch of time the MG42 is able throw out at least twice the firepower and as such cover a greater area with lead with relatively the same effect as the cannon when a man is hit. A more fair test would be to compare the results based on similar amounts of rounds fired. The test above shows a MG42 getting 110% more hits than the slower firing 20mm yet what no one is looking at is that both weapons are shredding the squads apart. Is a MG42 more effective than a 20mm on a one to one basis? In some situations yes, as it was historically. A cannon will show its greater effectiveness when used against targets in cover over a Machinegun where its inherent, albeit still small, explosive ability come more into play. As I indicated above, add in its anti-armor ability and air defense capability and you have a well rounded weapon. The direct comparission is apples and oranges as you are taking two different weapon designs with two different intended methods of employment into an artificial situation that greatly favors the overwhelming rate of fire of the Mg42. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Originally posted by Prinz Eugen: Oh my ! What a resourceful nation the Germans were.Only variantful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Originally posted by Prinz Eugen: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas: 39 points, three 15mm MGs, lower rarity than the M17... Budda budda kercheng...Three 15 mm MGs ? :confused: Are they really 15 mm ? I know these guns were used in fighters, but in SPWs as well ? Nasty ! Oh my ! What a resourceful nation the Germans were.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 bump this thread was lost in the noise of "I got it" OR "I Didn't get it " threads (a new one for every voice across the land it would seem) -tom w [ September 24, 2002, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 On the Eastern Front, the German infantry loved to use 1/2 Track mounted 20mm or 37mm auto cannons to root out Russian snipers in built up areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 The gamey AI bought an M-17 in a QB I played. I took it out with a Panther. With a buttoned up Panther, mind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 aka_tom_w said: Does the M17 die easy? I understand the those German AA Flak HT's are no longer invincible and they die EASY as well, so if the M17 has no "invincibilty bug" (cough! undocumented feature )The problem with the German AA HTs in CMBO was that in that game soft vehicles were handled differently than armored vehicles in some way which made smallarms and explosives rather ineffective against them. This issue has been addressed in CMBO and now unarmored vehicles die like flies. It's not uncommon for German unarmored AA HTs to get wiped out by rifle fire at up to 400m. M17s, however are armored to the same extent as the M5 halftrack. As such, they have about the same protection from smallarms fire and small HE near-misses as other HTs, although I believe they're a bit more vulnerable due to the gunners being up above the side armor (not sure on this). So to kill them, you need something that's macho enough to kill light armor. Fortunately, CMBB is full of such things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Beavis Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 never mind [ September 24, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Sgt. Beavis ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Here is a defense. One pair each of HMG42, single 20mm flak and quad 20mm Flak defend against a human wave of a regular infantry battalion. The HQ has one bonus of each. One only pair of units is allowed to fire to compare them. Here is how much they cost: MGs defend: allies take 134 casulties before Axis surrender due to high losses due to overrun, Axis 44% virtory,, Soviets 56% single 20mm defends: 77 casulties, 37:63% victory for the Soviets Quad 20mm defends: 127 casulties, 51%:49% (slightly more for Axis) Now, the comparision doesn't really apply, since CMBB flak guns do not fire by themself at infantry charging them from certain distances, around 200m. You have to give manual target orders which is of course very contraproductive here. [ September 25, 2002, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Remember that the 20mm Flak38 variants were all clip-fed anyway. Not the same sustained ROF as a belt-fed MG (the ammo drums for the Maxson quad .50 just contained rolled-up belts I believe). -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-WWIIOL Player Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 20 rounds per clip, clips could be changed every 6 secs, total PRACTICAL ROF was 200 per barrel or 800 rpm total for a Flakv 38. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Originally posted by Ex-WWIIOL Player: 20 rounds per clip, clips could be changed every 6 secs, total PRACTICAL ROF was 200 per barrel or 800 rpm total for a Flakv 38.So a big, clumsy HMG at best, when used in that role. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Andreas, Obviously haven't looked through the vehicle list carefully enough yet......... 30 points, oh my F..a.. !!! Will check rarity immediately, hopefully it's not to low, or definetely the multibarreled MG-pest brakes out invariably in Multiplay.... Greets Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Originally posted by TSword: 30 points, oh my F..a.. !!! Will check rarity immediately, hopefully it's not to low, or definetely the multibarreled MG-pest brakes out invariably in Multiplay.... AT rifles will take care of that... Being thin and slow in CMBB will not make it on the Quickbattle hitlist. Applies to both the Allied and Axis multi-MG AA halftracks. [ September 25, 2002, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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