Direct fire HE against armour

[Capitalistdoginchina]

I would have thought that when HE explodes against armour it would be more likely to damage the main gun or kill the TC (If he is unbuttoned) than ordinary AP rounds.

Whenever a 105mm or 95mm HE explodes against an AFV the shrapnel should have a higher chance to cause damage without penetration. My observations seem to tell me that only a gun hit will do the trick. Whether its a AP or HE round that hits does not seem to make much difference.

Does anyone know for sure - i am curious.

Regards

CDIC

[ April 22, 2002, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Captitalistdoginchina ]

[flamingknives]

Not too sure about 95/105 HE, but a decent sized arty round (or bomb) landing close by tends to do a lot of damage without knocking the vehicle out outright.

[Warmaker]

I've had more than a few Big Cats become immobile from very close heavy artillery impacts but it happens quite infrequently. As a matter of fact, I'm happy if the opponent wastes his precious 105mm artillery to try to get that "one lucky shot" to knock out one tank. I know my grunts are wiping the sweat off their foreheads when this happens.

Besides, it's been discussed on this board many, many, moons ago as to the lack of effectiveness (historically) of artillery being used against armor. It's asking for too much luck.

You're better off calling in that artillery on the infantry that's starting to creep towards your foxhole.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Sorry if i was not clear, i was only refering to Direct fire HE from Tanks against enemy armour. HE from Arty can be quite effective at damaging the main gun or causing an immobilisation. However I have witnessed several large caliber HE rounds slam against the Turret of an unbuttoned Tank only to see the TC button up...no other damage.

CDIC

[Olle Petersson]

I agree!

A direct hit with HE could also do some other tricks like remove/destroy the commanders MG, destroy the antenna (putting the vehicle out of command range), and then all those other nasty stuff...

Cheers

Olle

[James]

Not to mention the effect of shock & concussion on crew cohesion. The effect of large HE shell exploding against the armour right next to you may also convince a green crew they'd been Ko'd. Panic and premeture bailing out may follow.

[rleete]

In late '42, the turret internal component mountings on the Tiger 1 were changed. This was because a non-penetrating hit (such as HE) caused some of the mounted components to dislodge, and could cause crew casualties. Hence, all internal turret fittings were then welded to separate mounting plates, with additional fasteners and welds. So, a large HE shell, or a non-penetrating hit with AT, could cause a tank to be shocked or suffer crew loss. This according to crew reports, and is also stated by Doyle & Jentz.

[Redwolf]

Just to be sure: you know that CMBO has "internal armor flaking", which often but not always results in crew injuries?

And a second man down always means abanonded.

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Just to be sure: you know that CMBO has "internal armor flaking", which often but not always results in crew injuries?

And a second man down always means abanonded.

In my experience, "internal armor flaking" causes crew casualties only very rarely.

BTW, has anyone noticed that a single crew casualty will cause a Hotchkiss to be abandoned?--Why? Because it has only a two-man crew. I was suprised by this when my sharpshooter killed a Hotchkiss commander and suddenly it was KO'ed.

But it makes sense because the commander is also the gunner and loader. With only a driver that tank wasn't worth much.

Here's to the Hotchkiss: by far the worst tank in CMBO!

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Just to be sure: you know that CMBO has "internal armor flaking", which often but not always results in crew injuries?

And a second man down always means abanonded.

Hi Redwolf. Yes that is true, but only AP rounds will cause internal flaking when it is close to penetrating. HE has no such effect, but maybe it should have?

I remember in the days of the demo when playing VoT the German 150mm Infantry Gun could blast several rounds at short range against the hull of a sherman and the sherman was not at all bothered.......those 150mm rounds would have shattered their eardrums i reckon :eek:

CDIC

[Dschugaschwili]

I remember that a while ago someone from BTS (probably Steve) said that tanks/guns in CMBB will switch to HE if they see that AP is ineffective against an enemy tank to try to damage the gun or tracks. So it seems that it will be implemented, although it may not be in currently.

Dschugaschwili

[Soddball]

In one of my PBEM's, a Stuart has just taken a hit from an HE StuH42 (105mm), which hit the gun.

In a scenario I'm building and playtesting, 155 arty knocked landing 5m away from two StuGs knocked their guns out.

It seems that large calibre HE is very effective at knocking out weapons, assuming you can get it to hit.

[Arsenal]

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

I remember that a while ago someone from BTS (probably Steve) said that tanks/guns in CMBB will switch to HE if they see that AP is ineffective against an enemy tank to try to damage the gun or tracks. So it seems that it will be implemented, although it may not be in currently.

Dschugaschwili

I've seen this happen quite a bit using flak guns.When you target something they can't knock out they switch to HE after a period of bouncing AP rounds and then cause gun damage and track damage.

[ April 22, 2002, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: Jazza ]

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Originally posted by Jazza:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

I remember that a while ago someone from BTS (probably Steve) said that tanks/guns in CMBB will switch to HE if they see that AP is ineffective against an enemy tank to try to damage the gun or tracks. So it seems that it will be implemented, although it may not be in currently.

Dschugaschwili

I've seen this happen quite a bit using flak guns.When you target something they can't knock out they switch to HE after a period of bouncing AP rounds and then cause gun damage and track damage.</font>

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

I remember that a while ago someone from BTS (probably Steve) said that tanks/guns in CMBB will switch to HE if they see that AP is ineffective against an enemy tank to try to damage the gun or tracks. So it seems that it will be implemented, although it may not be in currently.

Dschugaschwili

Thats interesting, it is exactly what i am refering to............i hope it is in for CMBB!

CDIC

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Just 5 minutes ago i witnessed another one in a PBEM. My Churchill V111 fired a 95mm HE round into the side of a German Half-track (251-1) from less than 150 meters - it slammed squarely on the side track............the halftrack was immobilised, but the HT did not even button.

Seems not quite right, that explosion would have blown the HT 5 feet in the air....well, ok, maybe lifted the tracks a little But surely the HT would have been destroyed and the driver (TC) would have ducked his head (Buttoned) faster than you could say "Reverse!".

This is not a major complaint BTW, its an observation.......and one that i hope does not go unnoticed for CMBB.

CDIC

[Dschugaschwili]

As far as I know, a track hit will never penetrate in CMBO. So the best possible outcome is an immobilization.

Dschugaschwili

[Capitalistdoginchina]

ok ok ok, same pbem battle, next turn. British Sexton fires 88mm HE round into a Half-track 250/7 from 117 meters and gets a gun hit (Its a mortar HT) He he he, its kinda funny when you think about it, the HT is an open top vehicle with an inboard mortar............think about it.

The HT and crew would be toast...the 88mm blast is quite destructive.......and should be against this type of vehicle.

BTW, i still love this game, best game i ever played PERIOD. But i think some attention should be made to the modelling of large HE rounds on AFV's in CMBB.

Maybe this might draw a bone from BTS ?

Kip Anderson - Where are you, i need you pal!

CDIC

PS. It is true, a track hit will never penetrate.....maybe CMBB will be different?

[ April 22, 2002, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Captitalistdoginchina ]

[Foreigner]

As would be expected, the effect of HE on tanks depends on the blast power of the shell, and is sometimes not trivial at all. IIRC, Russian sources claim that a direct hit (over open sights) from a 152 mm ML-20 gun/howitzer HE shell (~48.6 kg/107 lbs) to a tank turret was enough to send it flying. Probably, we are not talking KTs here, but late Pz IVs are a safe bet. I also vaguely remember someone posting about large caliber US self-propelled howitzers (M7?) used in AT role in Arnheim - and I don't think those had (or really needed) AP shells (correct me if I'm wrong).

P.S. (Edited for more accurate shell weight)

[ April 23, 2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Foreigner ]

[jjelinek]

Just back from the artillery range: All of the results are from HE fire.

150mm German Inf gun @ 801m against an M4, front turret hit, no damage, forced crew to button.

150mm German Inf gun @ 801m against an M4, same result except crew already buttoned

Wesp (105mm) @ 902m against an M4, track hit, immobilized

Wesp @ 681m against M4, front turret hit, no damage

Hummel (155mm) @ 600m against M4, front lower hull penetration, KO'd, brewed up

M8 (75mm) @ 500m against Hummel, front upper hull penetration, KO, brewed up.

Looks like the thickness of the turret armour was probably the difference in this test. Any comments?

[JonS]

jjelinek,

were the Hummel and the M8 using Hollow Charge or HE rounds?

My obligatory war-story: Playing in a tourney, and my StuH slammed a 105mm HE round square into the front turret of an M4. Heh heh thinks I don't need to worry about him any more. So next turn I targetted onto something else, only to have the M4 laugh at the explosion on its turret front and promptly drill the StuH. Very disappointing

Regards

JonS

Edit: goosed the UBB again

[ April 22, 2002, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[jjelinek]

All hits were HE. I didn't count hits when other types of ammo were used.

[Michael Emrys]

I once watched a 105mm Arty shell land between two German halftracks that had gotten careless and parked a little too close together (less than 20 meters seperation). Killed them both.

Michael

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I once watched a 105mm Arty shell land between two German halftracks that had gotten careless and parked a little too close together (less than 20 meters seperation). Killed them both.

Yeah, the weird thing is, indirect arty works pretty much the way you would expect it to, but direct fire doesn't. :confused:

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by jjelinek:

M8 (75mm) @ 500m against Hummel, front upper hull penetration, KO, brewed up.

If you want to kill a Hummel or Nashorn, a stone thrown will do as well.

Looks like the thickness of the turret armour was probably the difference in this test. Any comments?

I don't think penetration and knockout is the issue here at all.

Is the risk of non-penetration damage bigger when hit by HE versus non-penetrating AP? In reality and in CMBO. People are probably right that in CMBO it is not, but was it in reality?

The penetration of a HE round does not only depend on its explosives load, but on the speed of travel. Don't ask me for the physics, rexford's book has them, IIRC. Also, the CMBO blast value is just a placeholder for a more detailed model.

[ April 22, 2002, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]