Random Maps In CMBB - Too Generic?

[Vanir Ausf B]

I've been playing around with the QB feature and something has jumped out at me. It seems all the maps generated with the same settings look about the same.

To check this I went back and booted up CMBO and made some random 3000 pt QB maps with small hills. Then I compared it to maps with the same settings in CMBB. The CMBB maps were much more uniform in their layout. There are more hills, but they are all about the same height and spaced roughly the same distance from each other. The trees are also sprinkled around in mostly same-size groupings. The maps are almost devoid of major features. In contrast the CMBO maps were much more varied. Sometimes I would get something like the CMBB maps, but mostly the terrain had a much more irregular layout with one or two dominant hills and large, deep valleys.

I suspect BFC has done this to make it less likely for one player to get an advantage. In this I think they have succeeded. But at what cost? I can't escape a sense of sameness looking at these maps. They lack character. I think I'd rather play on a map that may give a small edge to one player than play on basically the same map all the time.

I want my less fair, more interesting CMBO maps back. I want to battle over that key hill that dominates the battlefield, or move through that dead ground provided by that valley, or hide in the big bunch of trees. I want variety. Anybody else?

[ParaBellum]

I always thought that the 'random map' option was one of CM's greatest features. I'm often surprised how beautiful the maps are that are created by the computer.

Sometimes they lack the tactical challenge a good scenario designer will build into his maps but nevertheless I like them.

These are some pics of my last QB, computer generated map.

IMO a very nice map.

Ah, and the smoking Panzers are the AI's, of course...

[ November 19, 2002, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[WWB]

Not to mention the import map feature lets one get a visually appealing and tactically interesting map for your QB.

WWB

[Vanir Ausf B]

That is a nice map. That single hill that dominates the area is a rare sight indeed in CMBB, at least on large maps.

What grass are you using?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

Not to mention the import map feature lets one get a visually appealing and tactically interesting map for your QB.

Yes, it does. But I'm pretty lukewarm to that idea. Seeing the map ahead of time lets you cherry pick your forces to a greater degree than I would prefer.

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

That is a nice map. That single hill that dominates the area is a rare sight indeed in CMBB, at least on large maps.

What grass are you using?

I think it's quite important to set the 'hill level' a bit higher on large maps in order to get some interesting features.

I recently played a PBEM with Andreas and we got a very beautiful, interesting map.

He liked it, too, which is high praise indeed from such a good scenario designer.

Oh, did I say 'good'? I meant 'evil', of course...

Grass? Well, dude I stopped smoking...uhm-you mean the bmp?

Capt. Wacky's low-res gridded terrain. Looks great and improved the framerate quite a bit.

[Ari Maenpaa]

I agree with all of Vanir's points.

I can still remember some interesting QB maps from my first CMBO games. CMBB's generator seems to offer more generic and soulless maps.

Also what purpose does the flat hilliness setting serve? Isn't such completely flat "pool table terrain" totally unrealistic? One big reason for not to use random setting for hilliness.

And why should it be so hard to set the ground condition dry in QBs? "Don't play with the StuGs!" seems to be the message for the players.

Ari

[Le Tondu]

Random Maps are really quite good a very high percentage of the time. My only gripes are:

1. Swamps at the very top of a hill. -OR on a hill at all for that matter. Swaps should only be in low lying areas.

2. Those rock walls that are all by themselves out in the middle of nowhere.

[Sigurd]

a bit off-topic, but what mod do you use to obtain these "medals", left and right from the main game console ?

Definitely better than uniform grey !

[tracer]

I found out one thing, don't put a summer month, like June, then by mistake, put it as havin snow, you get summer trees and snow, looks kinda strange

[MikeyD]

Rumor has it the pool table QB map may be a thing of the past after the upcoming patch.

My own opinion of the quality of the random QB map is a bit mixed, myself. Sometimes they're so great you hit 'save' just to keep the map! Sometimes they're all-too-familiar country. But I do think they're much better than CMBO on average. You rarely get an unpleasantly funky unworkable map anymore.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

You rarely get an unpleasantly funky unworkable map anymore.

I know some people will look at this as an improvement, and I can't say they're wrong. It's a matter of taste. For me funky maps have character, and make the battles on them more memorable. In CMBO most people let each player refuse one map so you wouldn't get stuck with a totally one-sided map. I never did refuse a map.

You can still get good random maps in CMBB, but they just don't interest me as much. It's one of the very few things I think CMBO did better.

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Le Tondu:

2. Those rock walls that are all by themselves out in the middle of nowhere.

Those DO sorta make it look like Brittania, don't they?

Eden

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Sigurd:

a bit off-topic, but what mod do you use to obtain these "medals", left and right from the main game console ?

Definitely better than uniform grey !

Sigurd, they're part of the "red victory" GUI mod by Pavlov, highly recommended!

To be found at: CM Mod Database

[MrNoobie]

must try out the grid and the GUI. i had a QB with nothing but forests try movings tanks throught that i just love random

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by MrNoobie:

i had a QB with nothing but forests...

I had the opposite experience. I set up a QB in the northern sector and chose a village with maximum trees, hoping for a little hamlet set amidst a dense forest. Instead I got a map with probably less than 40% trees. Lots of open terrain.

[shrug]

Michael

[ November 19, 2002, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[ParaBellum]

Hehe...Mr.Noobie, a modding modslut?

BTW,

Trees :Tanks a Lot

KV I : Mr.Noobie

T-34 : Mr.Noobie

GUI : Pavlov

Explosions: Juju

Gridded Grass (lowres): Capt.Wacky

Burning fascist tanks: AI

Brilliant tactical planning for the soviet forces: ParaBellum

[edit: Michael, just saw your sig! ROFL! ]

[ November 19, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[MrNoobie]

Hehe...Mr.Noobie, a modding modslut?

why yes i am i was going to delete CMBO from my HD but i just couldnt, all those beautiful mods i downloaded, i just cant part with em

where do you get Cpt Wacky's gridded low res terrain mod? its not on the CM Mod Database (only offers hi res), ive recently tried my hand at medium maps and i found it to be choppy at times