Effective Engineer Use

[Krinks]

Can anyone suggest other uses for engineers, aside from clearing mines and blowing up pillboxes? I played a game against the AI and had a platoon of engineers, but they were for the most part useless until the last 2 minutes of battle, when they bravely ambushed a halftrack.

The halftrack was looking away, keeping some other troops pinned, and the engineers ran over a hillcrest from behind a friendly smokescreen and started tossing grenades and demo packs until they obliterated the vehicle.

Aside from that (beautiful) action, the only thing I used them for was securing objective areas and providing some suppressing fire.

There was a minefield, but it was so far out of my way as to be a non-threat. There was also barbed wire, but it was just as easy to go around since it was a large map.

[ 05-23-2001: Message edited by: Krinks ]

[ 05-23-2001: Message edited by: Krinks ]

[Michael Emrys]

With those satchel charges, they should be great against units in buildings...provided they can get close enough.

Michael

[Dirtweasle]

They are decent Infantry and with sachel charges pack punch at close range for bunker work, and can clean up some mines though not as cleanly as you'd like. Because the scale of CM is only 30 - 40 minutes, maybe longer in a few scenarios, their inhernet engineer benefits are moot.

[Bog]

A note about demo charges/Gammons: Remember that they are pretty much useless against moving AFVs, so don't employ them in a roadside ambush. Use them to sneak up behind tanks and throw their charges at them.

[Krinks]

Yeah I figured they wouldn't be too much good against a vehicle moving down the road. The halftrack they took out had been sitting in the same position for several turns, happily firing on another platoon.

I just smoked the area in front of him and used the engineers because they were the only ones in position to actually engage the halftrack.

It was a lot of fun seeing the vehicle turn to engage the first squad of engineers only to have another one come from behind and start tossing grenades and charges.

the halftrack kind of floundered like a beached whale then blew up .... oooo ... pretty flames.....

[CombinedArms]

I tend to treat Engineers pretty much as regular infantry and consider it good luck if I get to use their satchel charges. If I see minefields or barbed wire in their vicinity I'll point them in that direction, and I'll use them if I get behind a pillbox, but I find that in practice they often don't get to do their "engineer" thing.

My feeling is they're generally not worth the extra cost for a QB, unless, perhaps, I knew I were fighting an urban battle where satchel charges and flamethrowers come in handiest. What are other folks opinions?

I WILL try to use their special capabilities in a prepared scenario, where they often appear, but I don't get too bent out of shape if that never happens. Actually, knocking out a halftrack with satchel charges to me seems like a pretty spectacular outcome. I rarely get anything like that--I'd consider that unusually cool if my guys did that and certainly wouldn't be complaining.

In real life, I think Combat Engineers were some of the coolest troops around. The great pitcher Warren Spahn was one, and he was working on the Luddendorf Bridge at Remagen and just happened to step off it five minutes before it collapsed, killing about 20 guys who were trying to shore it up. I think the Engineers were great because they could build and blow up bridges, create roads and airfields, and also fight as infantry. The fact that you can't DIRECT them to use their satchel charges in the game--say on a bridge--is one CM limitation. Great all purpose troops, but sometimes hard to use optimally in the CM setting. At the very least, though, they're good infantry.

[ 05-25-2001: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Redwolf]

I used to buy engineers to get the flamethrowers cheaper. After some thoughts about victory point balance, I don't get engineers anymore because they come with flamethrowers

More costly units cost twice, first in purchase, then in victory points if you can't keep them alife. When starting with 2 FT teams I can usually bring one of them to devastating effect, with one man or so. That brought me several flags, however, a FT team costs 37 points, so you gave 55 points to the opponent in changing a 100 points flag from netral to you or him to neutral, which is worth about as much.

[Krinks]

Oh, I certainly am not complaining about the outcome of the halftrack situation, it's just that my flamethrower was way out of position and the engineers were the only ones available to take on the vehicle.

Incidentally, I didn't buy those engineers, it was a quick battle and the computer picked the units for me, probably because of the pillbox involved in the game.

Luckily, though, I didn't have to take it with my infantry due to a lucky tank shot, sop the engineers found themselves used for clearing the woods and securing objective flags, along with the final blaze of glory.

[BloodyBucket]

Infantry with mammoth grenades. One thing about them is your opponent has to be aware that you would like to get close with engineers. Something unnerving about that.

[Krinks]

Personally, if I saw someone flinging around those satchel charges... I'd run like the wind...

[Thermopylae]

Some people like to count on mines and wire to hold up an important piece of terrain, and leave lighter forces holding behind it say a MG and a toon without reserves near by...they'll be surprised as all hell when you push a rifle platoon or two plus the engineers through that gap. If your really lucky, they'll have relied on the obstacles alone.

[Krinks]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thermopylae:

Some people like to count on mines and wire to hold up an important piece of terrain, and leave lighter forces holding behind it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The silly thing about this situation I played is that the computer set up the minefield on a road leading off to a side of the board that had no interest or objectives whatsoever.

The two barbed wire obstacles were completely unguarded, and in the middle of the woods. One was off on the opposite side of the terrain from the minefield in an even less interesting piece of terrain, and the other was in the middle of the forest, where I had no interest in exiting (since it was visible to enemy troops anyway). The only thing I did was walk a few extra meters to get around it and still met every objective for a total victory.

I know a human opponent would place these obstacles in a far better position, but it just seemed odd that a pretty decent AI would stick them in what is essentially the middle of nowhere.

I guess that's the big difference between AI and humans.

[Stalins Organ]

Just for interest's sake, last night I was playing a scenario heavy with satchel charges, and you do actually get to see them flying through the air, at elast in an overhead view (#5) - same with rifle grenades.

[Krinks]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike the bike:

Just for interest's sake, last night I was playing a scenario heavy with satchel charges, and you do actually get to see them flying through the air, at elast in an overhead view (#5) - same with rifle grenades.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I watched my engineers throw three or four until one finally landed right on top of the halftrack, killing all aboard. How heavy are real satchel charges anyway? I would think that much explosive material would be kinda dangerous to the people throwing it too.

[Moriarty]

Engineers can be very useful on defense. I have both used and walked into an engineer ambush in woods. Very effective. A pair of flamethrowers can really change a squad/platoon's mind about continuing on that course. And satchel charges can tear a squad a whole new butt. Same ambush concept goes for defending VLs.

For buildings, there are two ways to approach. You can defend the building from within (keep the rifles in the center where they are less likely to be seen) and the FTs provide a nasty surprise. OR, you can wait for your opponent to occupy a building and then flame it from concealed positions nearby.

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Krinks:

Yeah, I watched my engineers throw three or four until one finally landed right on top of the halftrack, killing all aboard. How heavy are real satchel charges anyway? I would think that much explosive material would be kinda dangerous to the people throwing it too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think they range anywhere from 10 to 50 pounds. I think it would kind of hard to throw those more than 40 feet. I personally wouldn't want to be near even the smallest one at detonation.

[Krinks]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

I think they range anywhere from 10 to 50 pounds. I think it would kind of hard to throw those more than 40 feet. I personally wouldn't want to be near even the smallest one at detonation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps a new Olympic event?

"Demolition Charge Throw-and-Dash"

[Phillies Phan]

What is sort of sad is that I didn't know they could clear barb wire until reading this thread. Thanks folks.

I'm playing a scenario where there are multiple mines and I'm attacking. What is the best way to disable these things? I'm sending both platoons of U.S. Engineers walking through minefields searching for them. What was bothering me was that I would process the turn and then see the minefield behind me. The conditions are mud and night, so visibility is low.

Suggestions on barbed wire too would be welcome.

[HappyMan]

Yesterday I had an engineer troop throw their demo charge from their building into an enemy occupied building. The only problem was that the other building contained not only an american troop but one of mine... The effect was that I blew my own gyus to pieces and the amis where unhurt... *sigh*

[Krinks]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HappyMan:

Yesterday I had an engineer troop throw their demo charge from their building into an enemy occupied building. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm playing a PBEM right now, and I sent a squad of infantry with a supporting tank to investigate some buildings, to make sure the enemy had no vehicles hiding there.

When I approached the building, I came under fire by what the game said was "Infantry?" and moved my squad in, with suppressing fire from the tank.

As my squad moved within range, I suddenly realized that the enemy in the house was actually German engineers. needless, to say, a flying satchel charge took out my squad very quickly.

Gotta love that Fog-O-War

[ 06-11-2001: Message edited by: Krinks ]

[Stefan Fredriksson]

So if you want to clear a road-block, you...

- Move the Engineers right next to it?

or

- Move them to within 15-20 meters from it?

[Guest PondScum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stefan Fredriksson:

So if you want to clear a road-block, you...

- Move the Engineers right next to it?

or

- Move them to within 15-20 meters from it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

- Ask BTS to put remove-roadblock capability into the next engine rewrite, and get told to do a search as to why this isn't realistic

[Roadblocks are permanent and indestructible in CMBO]

[Radar]

No, Sorry Stefan, IIRC, removing road blocks and barbed wire isn't a function of Combat Engineers in CM. I believe its due to the time limits of the game.

[Stefan Fredriksson]

Thanks guys. I am in an operation where I would have liked that feature. But it is good to know that it will not work - before you bring them up...

[CombinedArms]

Hey, hey!

I finally got a chance to blow up a serious AFV with demo charges. At the beginning of a new battle in an operation, I was occupying a village with some engineers and the Germans (AI) had a bunch of tanks, etc.--2 Tigers, 2 Stugs, 2 Hummels on my left--suprised the hell out of me where they were placed, and I wasn't in a good position to counter. An armored battle followed, I lost four tanks/TDs and the Germans had so far lost 3 AFVs. Anyway, one Hummel backed up against the notch between two buildings at the corner of my village and the Germans had one remaining Tiger and one Stug that were ranging further out. All my tanks in the village were dead. I thought, perfect opportunity for my engineers to use demo charges on that Hummel, since it's an open-topped vehicle-- and sent one squad each running into the two buildings it was backed into, and sent a Hellcat racing from behind a clump of woods to nail the Tiger and Stug in the tail. It was then going to race around in front of the Hummel, which was providing overwatch, and on into the village--but hopefully the Hummel would be dead by then.

As it happened, the Hellcat did kill the Tiger, then the Stug with successive tail shots. The first infantry team, in the righthand building, threw two stachel charges at the Hummel and missed with both. By this time, the Hellcat was moving into the Hummel's LOS and its turret hadn't gotten round yet to draw a bead on the Hummel, which was slowly rotating its body (no turret) to hammer the Hellcat at 50 meters. Uh, oh.

But the lefthand engineer team was finally getting into position. First satchel charge...misses! 2nd satchel charge (well, actually a rifle grenade) hits! Dead Hummel. Hellcat arrives in village safely.

A happy outcome for me--and it was cool that both squads really used their weapons as I meant them to--but also chastening that at 20 meters it's still possible to miss w/ three out of four of these babies. The Hummel moved slightly to reposition itself to shoot at the Hellcat, which might account for some of the misses.