CMBB and OSX

[Bigdog]

Originally posted by Gen-x87H:

"It would be great if BTS would comment on this issue. Mac Guys should know there platform future with CM"

I believe they already have. It sounded like Apple kind of blind sided them on the RAVE issue and OS-X. You cant expect them to rewrite the entire engine for such a small crowd. After CMBB I can say it would be expected since they have indicated that is when the engine will be rewritten.

Gen

Are we that small of a crowd? That was not my question anyway. Here are my questions

1. What kind of performance hits does CM have with OS X classic?

2. On the duel processor Mac does it boot up OS 9? (Not classic) and will match the performance of the currant G4 s running OS 9?

3. Has BTS done any testing on the new duel processor Macs?

It would be great if BTS would comment on this issue.

[karch]

Originally posted by Bigdog:

1. What kind of performance hits does CM have with OS X classic?

I don't know if anyone has ever gotten CM to run in classic mode (OS 9) inside OS X. I've tried and can't.

2. On the duel processor Mac does it boot up OS 9? (Not classic) and will match the performance of the currant G4 s running OS 9?

Dual processor Macs boot fine into 9 but very few programs have been written to utilize multiple processors and only some of the OS does. Whatever your faster processor is, that is all the speed you'll get. OSX/carbon/cocoa apps will take advantage of all the processors you have. It's part of being native X.

3. Has BTS done any testing on the new duel processor Macs?

I doubt it only because they wouldn't get any advantage from running on one.

It would be great if BTS would comment on this issue.

Sorry I'm not BTS, but I'm pretty confident those answers are correct. In OS9, only applications specifically written to use multiple processors can do so. Carbonized or Cocoa apps running in X will use 2 or more processors natively. They just do. They don't have to be told the processors are there, the OS handles all that.

Now if someone knows how to get CM to run in software 3D mode to bypass classic RAVE, that woud be great. Anyone? Anyone?

Scott karch

[karch]

I just got CM to run inside OSX. While classic (OS9) was booting, I held down the space bar to bring up the extension manager and disabled ALL ATI extensions, graphics extensions and Classic Rave. Once classic finished loading, I fired up CM and it ran.

It kicked the screen back into 640x480 and ran in a pretty rough looking software rendering, but it ran. It's good enough for me to play a quick turn without having to reboot!! I'll see if there are any ATI or graphics extensions that can loat that will help the game at all.

scott

[Bigdog]

Originally posted by karch:

I just got CM to run inside OSX. While classic (OS9) was booting, I held down the space bar to bring up the extension manager and disabled ALL ATI extensions, graphics extensions and Classic Rave. Once classic finished loading, I fired up CM and it ran.

It kicked the screen back into 640x480 and ran in a pretty rough looking software rendering, but it ran. It's good enough for me to play a quick turn without having to reboot!! I'll see if there are any ATI or graphics extensions that can loat that will help the game at all.

scott

You so Bummed me out Scott

[ March 21, 2002, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Bigdog ]

[Battlefront.com]

Folks,

We have yet to try out OSX and certainly haven't played around with dual processor Macs (because Apple doesn't give them away and we can't go buying new hardware all the time). So we can not comment on OSX much except to say:

1. OSX wasn't around when we were developing CMBO.

2. Apple's communications with developers, especially game developers, has been horrible lately.

3. Apple apparently still "doesn't get it" when it comes to keeping to its plans for the future. If Apple says "this is the standard and we will continue support for it" we have to believe them. If they then turn around a year later and renig on that promise, everybody loses. They f'd the entire game community when they dropped support for RAVE.

We will see what we can do about working around OSX problems, but we aren't sure exactly what can be done without rewriting the entire core game engine.

As much as we love the Mac (as most of you know, even the PC code is written and initially tested on a Mac using software emulation), we can not forget that the OSX CM users will likely constitute single digit % of our total customer base for at least the next year. Spending months rewriting our old engine (which will be trashed as soon as CMBB is completed) specifically for this small crowd is simply not fair to everybody else.

More information on OSX issues as they develop.

Steve

P.S. I still use OS 8.6 since I never found a compelling reason to upgrade to the initially unstable OS 9. Especially because at least one key piece of software I use will not work on it. You guys DO want new models in CMBB, right?

[Bigdog]

Thanks Steve,

Well no new box for me, for the time being. Apple is there own worst enemy, you would think they would make the transition to OSX easy for everybody. This will surly hurt their sales from a fair amount user's not willing give up on some programs & games also. OSX sure looks sexy, but I am not willing to give up CM.

Steve if you could please let the MAC community know of any change in status in the platform compatibility. Thanks again for not giving Mac OS the old Heave Ho like so many other software companies.

[ March 21, 2002, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Bigdog ]

[karch]

Originally posted by Bigdog:

Thanks Steve,

Well no new box for me, for the time being. Apple is there own worst enemy, you would think they would make the transition to OSX easy for everybody. This will surly hurt their sales from a fair amount user's not willing give up on some programs & games also. OSX sure looks sexy, but I am not willing to give up CM.

Steve if you could please let the MAC community know of any change in status in the platform compatibility. Thanks again for not giving Mac OS the old Heave Ho like so many other software companies.

I don't understand. If you want/need a faster box, buy one. It will run CM in OS9. OS9 is what you are running now, just run it on your faster computer. You don't HAVE to run OSX. Aside from Combat Mission, I don't know of ANY programs that don't have a OSX version or won't run in classic mode from within OSX. I run X all the time, and the few programs that fire up in classic mode run fine as well. It's only for CM playing that I ever boot back into 9 completely.

I agree that it is really frustrating that apple seems to have dropped support for classic RAVE, but they MAY release a newer classic RAVE extension to help RAVE apps run in X. Then we could use CM in X and everyone would be happy. I don't think it's as bad as most people suspect. Most of the programs people use at work on a day to day basis are carbonized, and as soon as a few Macromedia apps get converted, a HUGE number of web developers will probably finish making the switch. I don't see why you don't get a new computer if you want one. You shouldn't have any less compatability with what you have now... and it would be faster.

Scott

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Spending months rewriting our old engine (which will be trashed as soon as CMBB is completed) specifically for this small crowd is simply not fair to everybody else.

Steve, I think you might have misunderstood. I don't think anyone was thinking that you should rewrite the existing engine so that it will be X compatible. (If there was, we will take him outside and explain why that wasn't such a good idea. ) I think what people are hoping for (at least I am), is that when CMII comes along it will be X compatible. Are we clear now?

Michael

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Folks,

We have yet to try out OSX and certainly haven't played around with dual processor Macs (because Apple doesn't give them away and we can't go buying new hardware all the time). So we can not comment on OSX much except to say:

1. OSX wasn't around when we were developing CMBO.

2. Apple's communications with developers, especially game developers, has been horrible lately.

3. Apple apparently still "doesn't get it" when it comes to keeping to its plans for the future. If Apple says "this is the standard and we will continue support for it" we have to believe them. If they then turn around a year later and renig on that promise, everybody loses. They f'd the entire game community when they dropped support for RAVE.

We will see what we can do about working around OSX problems, but we aren't sure exactly what can be done without rewriting the entire core game engine.

As much as we love the Mac (as most of you know, even the PC code is written and initially tested on a Mac using software emulation), we can not forget that the OSX CM users will likely constitute single digit % of our total customer base for at least the next year. Spending months rewriting our old engine (which will be trashed as soon as CMBB is completed) specifically for this small crowd is simply not fair to everybody else.

More information on OSX issues as they develop.

Steve

P.S. I still use OS 8.6 since I never found a compelling reason to upgrade to the initially unstable OS 9. Especially because at least one key piece of software I use will not work on it. You guys DO want new models in CMBB, right?

Hi Steve

If BTS applied for developer status, Apple would give you a REALLY good deal on hardware and software and work with you as you are a bonified developer. Perhaps someone here can put you in touch with someone at Apple who would be happy to list you as a game company that develops on the Mac platform.

I take issue with your comment "Apple's communications with developers, especially game developers, has been horrible lately" I get all my apple beta software from friends of mine that are Apple developers. Funny thing is they are not Apple Developers (really) they just make web sites on Macs, BUT they filled out all the paper work, dotted all the "i"'s and crossed all "t"'s and low and behold Apple sends them EVERTHING new and beta for free for their own use and sells them Apple equpiment at discounted prices. Its all true.

If BTS was a fully accredited Apple Developer (signed NDA's and all, yeah I knw its alot of paper work) Apple computer would be giving you a break on hardware and sending you the latest beta system software for free.

I will try to get in touch with someone at Apple who might be able to be more helpful. I only have one or two connections but I will see what I can dig up.

cheers

-tom w

[Battlefront.com]

Michael

I think what people are hoping for (at least I am), is that when CMII comes along it will be X compatible.

Hehe... there is only one obvious answer to this so I never thought for a second that was what the question was! Of course CM's rewritten code is going to be compatiable with OS X. Why on Earth would be program a ground up graphics engine to work with an already dead API set? Yesh, and I thought you had respect for us

Tom,

If BTS applied for developer status, Apple would give you a REALLY good deal on hardware and software and work with you as you are a bonified developer. Perhaps someone here can put you in touch with someone at Apple who would be happy to list you as a game company that develops on the Mac platform.

Chalres and I were both, seperately, Apple Developers since about 1993. We have followed the programs huge ups and downs, including the chaos of the Games Evangalist post, up until about 3 years ago. I don't know if things have changed since then, but they gutted the program of all that was valuable to us, raised the rates, and basically confirmed a full dacade's worth of incompetent, half assed attempts (when even attempted) to offer even minimal support for games. Trust me, we have a lot of experience in this area. Apple's developer programs, relating to games, suck. And we aren't the only game developer to think this either, trust me...

I take issue with your comment "Apple's communications with developers, especially game developers, has been horrible lately"

Hehe... and I was being kind when I said "lately" Compare Microsoft's support of deveopers (specifically games developers) with Apple's and there is no comparision between the two. The fact that Microfsoft's stuff is horribly frustrating, inconsistant, and often times inexplicably buggy is mitigated by the overall amount of effort they put into their support. Apple, on the other hand, often puts out stuff that works OK then drops without warning (OpenDoc for example) or fails in its execution of the product (Newton for example, or the $1000 PC card I bought). There is no other company I know which has developed so much stuff touted as "revolutionary" and then dropped shortly after it was released. Try developing for a company that does this on a regular basis. Jobs improved this a whole bunch, but the RAVE issue is an example of Apple's continuing disregard for its developers' critical needs being alive and well. Well, at least our type of developer.

If BTS was a fully accredited Apple Developer (signed NDA's and all, yeah I knw its alot of paper work) Apple computer would be giving you a break on hardware and sending you the latest beta system software for free.

You mean they reinstituted the hardware purchase discount program that they yanked several years back? Well, that is news to me. As for the beta system software... it doesn't mean much to us at all since we made our core coding decisions based on Apple specs which they dropped without hardly any warning. We are in touch with other Mac Developers and I can assure you that they were as poorly informed as anybody. Apple made a corporate decision, failed to notify people about it ahead of time (so as to not shake confidence in existing API), then dropped a bomb when they announced that the RAVE extension would not be supported in the least by OSX.

Now... I might be dumping on Apple here, but they are far better than Microsoft. Something they did with DirectX 3 (or specifically, failed to do) cost the company I worked with tens of thousands of dollars in tech support calls just for our one product. The total for the company, IIRC, was in the six figure range.

OK, rant over

Despite all of the above, we still use the Mac day in and day out. It is a fantastic machine with a (barely) superior OS. The delayed push into the GHz CPU range and OS X clearly put Apple back in the lead again IMHO on the technical level. Unfortunately, its trail of broken promises, unfulfilled expectations, and downright moronic business decisions have insured that most software released today will only run on Windows. But so long as I have the basic tools I need, the Mac will remain my main system.

We know where to find Apple if we need them. But the last time we checked into the developer programs offered by them, we weren't even remotely interested.

Steve

[ March 22, 2002, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Big Time Software ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Apple's developer programs, relating to games, suck.

I have to agree with you here, and frankly I am confounded by their attitude. For some reason, Apple has this long standing disdain for the whole area of computer games, and frankly I don't understand it. They seem to view game players as beneath their dignity...or some such.

Again, I am baffled by this attitude as (1) it represents a significant chunk of the whole business, one which I doubt Apple can truly afford to neglect; and (2) it strikes me that the Mac platform could be made ideal for all forms of "home entertainment".

:confused:

Apple, on the other hand, often puts out stuff that works OK then drops without warning (OpenDoc for example) or fails in its execution of the product (Newton for example, or the $1000 PC card I bought). There is no other company I know which has developed so much stuff touted as "revolutionary" and then dropped shortly after it was released.

I've noticed this too, and I find it strange. There appears to be something in Apple's management policies that could use more decisive leadership.

Michael

[Jarmo]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[qb]Apple, on the other hand, often puts out stuff that works OK then drops without warning (OpenDoc for example) or fails in its execution of the product (Newton for example, or the $1000 PC card I bought). There is no other company I know which has developed so much stuff touted as "revolutionary" and then dropped shortly after it was released.

I've noticed this too, and I find it strange. There appears to be something in Apple's management policies that could use more decisive leadership.</font>

[kmead]

In regards to OSX, I have been using it recreationally and testing it for work. In general it works very nicely and can only get better. I personally think that from a business case standpoint OSX is the best possible thing Appl e could do. Having stuff like Maya ported to the Mac (I am an industrial designer also, lets hope Rhino will make the jump to UNIX) and who knows what to come is very encouraging.

Due to my employers network we use Dave for mapping network drives and printing under WINS servers that suppress Appletalk "chatter". Dave works well under both OS9 and the new version under X. It allows us to utilize all network resources, and is generally benign relative to other software. I have been very pleased with it and suffered few problems on the 15 Macs I oversee as one of my many duties. Once our email system changes to something non Extra based we will be able to never log onto the corporate standard system (and there will be mcuh rejoicing....) in the meantime Hotmail and Yahoo suffice. Dave uses TCPIP only, allows us to log on to the network as if we were any other MSW user. Dave is put out by Thursby Software (no I am not employed or otherwise affilitiated with them.)

In regards to Apple and the Rave API, I can understand and sympathise with Steve and Charles with their frustration over Apple dropping a "standard" without sufficient notice. On the other hand a more modern imaging model for a new OS makes alot of sense just as a new engine makes alot of sense for BTS to develop for CM. Apple had to do it just as BTS has to develop the new engine, it makes it easier and faster to create new iterations, add features and cost less to do it. It also has much greater potential, eventually you have to say its time to move on in order to move forward. One can only imagine where Apple might have been if Jobs could have developed his vision that he attempted at NEXT. I am not saying it would be any better off, but certainly at a very different point in its OS development.

Oh and Steve, thanks for your patience with me when I was carrying the OSX torch last year. I don't disagree with your position on the development of your products at all. Given your resources you really have no other choice. I think that even if you had more resources, you are right that there really isn't a large enough number of X (now or in the next year and a half that are also in the market for BTS products) users to justify making changes now. Absolutely no offence meant, but CMBO has a limited lifetime before people will no longer respond to its graphics regardless of how great the game really is. (Please note that CMBO is my only game, and I truly love it so please don't flame...) CMBB will lose sales due to Apple's lack of Rave support, or its lack of OpenGL support. Will it be a make it or break it issue for BTS, likely not given the preponderance of MSOS buyers.

The thing to keep in mind about Mac owners is that most of us will still be on the same machine between now and when CMBB is replaced or will be running on machines that have been just recently bought and will still run OS9.x.x Apple owners tend to keep their machines for extended periods, my revB iMac is still stable reliable and acceptable to use 3 years after buying it. My G4 towers are over two years old now and are running great, our NT boxes are also the same age and have to be replaced soon as they will not run our corporate software standards acceptably any longer. I am thinking about a new home purchase so I can utilize OSX and the new software products available, but in my case I doubt it will be another iMac, at least for my use (and I will certainly not be getting it to better run games).

When CM engine 2 comes out, most Apple owners will definitely be on OSX primarily with fairly new hardware. The Apple hardware available then (assuming Apple is still around) will be much more capable and will seem like less of a step down in performance than they are perceived to be now.

Bigdog, as has been suggested by others elsewhere in this thread, if you need a new Apple, go ahead and buy one. It will run OS9.x.x wonderfully into perpetuity, it will run OSX nicely for years into the future and CMBB will be excellent on a nice new graphics card... I wouldn't hesitate.

[Battlefront.com]

kmead,

In regards to Apple and the Rave API, I can understand and sympathise with Steve and Charles with their frustration over Apple dropping a "standard" without sufficient notice. On the other hand a more modern imaging model for a new OS makes alot of sense just as a new engine makes alot of sense for BTS to develop for CM.

Oh, I totally agree with Apple dropping RAVE in favor of a more open and accepted standard. The problem is they told us RAVE would be supported under OS X, just not all fancy and fast like OpenGL. Because Apple had not yet finalized how it was going to deal with OpenGL (another flub up), we decided to go with what worked then and was supposed to work (at least OK) later on. Then Apple quietly dropped support for RAVE and apparently didn't tell anybody about it for a while. Or something like that.

If Apple had told us 2 years ago that RAVE was dead *and* had its act together supporting OpenGL, CM would not have been programmed for RAVE. Thereofore, Apple screwed up in a big way.

We will see about trying to hack some sort of OS X work around into CMBB. We don't have high hopes for this working, but we'll at least try.

Steve

[jeffsmith]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

We will see about trying to hack some sort of OS X work around into CMBB. We don't have high hopes for this working, but we'll at least try.

Steve

I don't think anyone could ask for anything more from a software company

Thank You BTS

[karch]

Originally posted by jeffsmith:

I don't think anyone could ask for anything more from a software company

Thank You BTS[/QB]

I second that. As Mac users, I'm sure you understand how much we appreciate having this game for the Macintosh.

I have made the switch and run X full time.. except when running CM.. but I'll even play quick battles in classic mode with software rendering to save rebooting back into 9.

I'm also a software developer.. or at least a database developer, and fully appreciate your situation and I am thankful that you have supported us as much as you have.

THANKS A MILLION!!

[kmead]

If Apple had told us 2 years ago that RAVE was dead *and* had its act together supporting OpenGL, CM would not have been programmed for RAVE. Thereofore, Apple screwed up in a big way.

Without a doubt Apple screwed the pooch in a big way on that one. I have tons of childrens educational CDs that won't run under OSX?Classic, not to mention several abandoned Apple technology doorstops sitting around collecting dust.

We will see about trying to hack some sort of OS X work around into CMBB. We don't have high hopes for this working, but we'll at least try.

Steve:

This is great news. We really appreciate you even thinking about attempting such a thing. I think its a very good business choice if it doesn't appreciabley slow development or reduces performance and the quality of game performance under OS9 outside of X/Classic.

If it doesn't happen, although I would be disappointed, I know you guys would not include it for the right reasons. Good luck in implementing the alterations.

In any case, I think the work all of your are doing is absolutely fantastic on CMBB. I for one will be sure to have a machine that runs OS9.x.x natively just so I can appreciate it.

I will be getting a MSW machine for my Dad along with CMBO and CMBB for him later this year, could you run them down to him in Dexter?

Again thanks from all of us and godspeed on finishing before July 4!

Karl

[karch]

Originally posted by kmead:

What children's games won't run in Classic on X? I only have an infant and the living books series of Dr Seuss CDs run fine. That is all I have though.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

kmead,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In regards to Apple and the Rave API, I can understand and sympathise with Steve and Charles with their frustration over Apple dropping a "standard" without sufficient notice. On the other hand a more modern imaging model for a new OS makes alot of sense just as a new engine makes alot of sense for BTS to develop for CM.

Oh, I totally agree with Apple dropping RAVE in favor of a more open and accepted standard. The problem is they told us RAVE would be supported under OS X, just not all fancy and fast like OpenGL. Because Apple had not yet finalized how it was going to deal with OpenGL (another flub up), we decided to go with what worked then and was supposed to work (at least OK) later on. Then Apple quietly dropped support for RAVE and apparently didn't tell anybody about it for a while. Or something like that.

If Apple had told us 2 years ago that RAVE was dead *and* had its act together supporting OpenGL, CM would not have been programmed for RAVE. Thereofore, Apple screwed up in a big way.

We will see about trying to hack some sort of OS X work around into CMBB. We don't have high hopes for this working, but we'll at least try.

Steve</font>

[flamingknives]

Just so long as BTS doesn't go the same way as another cross-platform games developer, I'll be happy.

I hate you Microsoft!

I wanted Halo, but you spoiled it for EVERYONE! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Destruction of Microsoft is not unnecessary.

[Gen-x87H]

If Apple had told us 2 years ago that RAVE was dead *and* had its act together supporting OpenGL, CM would not have been programmed for RAVE. Thereofore, Apple screwed up in a big way."

I wonder how much dev costs + time you guys would have saved if you could have done it in OpenGL from the start.

Gen