King Tiger or King Panther?

[karch]

Looking at pictures of the King Tiger, or Tiger II, the shape of the turret, and especially the Glacis looks much more like an advanced Panther than anything like a Tiger.

Anyone know notice this or know of a good reason it wasn't named after a the tank it looked more like?

[Gpig]

Actually, I always noticed the similarity of the drivetrain and road wheels/track layout between the Tiger I and II. Especially looking at it from the side.

That's where the name similarities came from, me thinks.

Anyone else know if the Tiger II was indeed based on the Tiger I's hull?

Gpig

[Michael Dorosh]

Just guessing, but Tiger was officially a Heavy tank and Panther a Medium (a bit of a misnomer). I have no idea if that has anything to do with it or not.

[rleete]

Originally posted by Gpig:

Actually, I always noticed the similarity of the drivetrain and road wheels/track layout between the Tiger I and II. Especially looking at it from the side.

That's where the name similarities came from, me thinks.

Anyone else know if the Tiger II was indeed based on the Tiger I's hull?

The Tiger II was originally supposed to be a simple upgrade, and turned into a major overhaul. Many of the components are similar, but are not interchangable. They are, however, a natural progression of the heavy tank, and were lessons learned with the Tiger I.

Edit: the hulls are not the same. Layout is slightly different, and dimensions are larger on the KT.

[ August 07, 2002, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: R_Leete ]

[Doug Beman]

The King Tiger was developed using lessons learned AFTER the design of the TigerI had been finalized (ie "lessons taught by the T34 like sloped armor, basic shape of hull," etc). These lessons, once digested, gave rise to the Panther and, when the time came to design the successor to the Tiger, these same lessons shaped KT.

KT and PantherII (which never came to anything beyond board-sketches and mockups) were to share some components between themselves, in order to gain some economies of scale in construction.

DjB

[Herr Oberst]

Originally posted by Doug Beman:

KT and PantherII (which never came to anything beyond board-sketches and mockups) were to share some components between themselves, in order to gain some economies of scale in construction.

DjB

What!?! Economies of scale in production??? From the Germans??? Heresy!

[jgdpzr]

Originally posted by Doug Beman:

KT and PantherII (which never came to anything beyond board-sketches and mockups) were to share some components between themselves, in order to gain some economies of scale in construction.

DjB

I agree on everything you said except this point. The Germans did complete at least two prototype hulls (one hull sits at the Patton Museum), completely fitted out, so I would consider that beyond the mock-up stage. IIRC, there is some debate about the extent of the turret development. Further, I can't remember if the turret to be used was the same as that known as the schmallturm (sic.), or if that design was just a legacy of the Panther F. Now, I do believe the Panther F (the earlier idea for the upgrading of the Panther) never got much further than the drawing-board/mock-up stage. However, I'm fairly certain this was a separate project that pre-dated the Panther II.

[PzKpfw 1]

Originally posted by jgdpzr:

The Panther Ausf.F also made it past the drawing board Ie, Ausf.F chassis were found mixed in with Ausf.G chassis on the production line floor @ the Berlin-Marienfelde; Dalimar Benz factory when it was captured. The

It is also not clear if any Ausf.F saw serevice Ie, had any Ausf. F been produced they would have gone directly to II./Pz.Regt 2 from April 20 - 23rd 1945, & then straight into the Berlin battles. It also doesn help that the 1st AusF.F may have used Ausf.G turrets as well.

Production of the Panther F with schmalturm was set to begin with D.B in March 1945 with Panther No. 2229, M.A.N. April 1945 with Panther No. 2621, M.N.H. May 1945 with Panther, No. 2303.

Regards, John Waters

[jgdpzr]

Thanks for the clarification, John. Now that you mention it, I do seem to remember something about some F hulls being found. I think there is even a picture of them in the jigs in Jentz's "Quest for Combat Supremacy," correct? Another question: What were the differences in the hulls of the F and G? I can't remember much about that, although I've always thought the major difference between the two vehicles was to be the turret.

Also, can you shed any light on whether the Panther II was to mount the schmalturm, or if it was to sport a completely different model turret? That, too, I can't remember. I know this all probably in Jentz's book, but it's at home and I'm at work. Thanks again!

Edited: Never mind John, I think I remember some of the differences in the hulls now. Seems I recall one of them being that they had different top plates on the hull in front of the turret. A different arrangement of hatches in that plate as well, IIRC. Not sure what else though.

[ August 08, 2002, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: jgdpzr ]

[offtaskagain]

I believe the F had 100mm glacis among other differences.

[MikeyD]

I believe the F also had a thicker forward hull roof to help with that deflect-off-mantlet-into-hull problem.

I also seem to recall the 'King' Tiger wasn't referred to that way by German forces. It might have been originally coined by the British(?), and still later picted up by the German propaganda machine because they liked the sound of it. But it's not at all official

[ramor]

Late model Tiger 1's and some late war Panthers shared the same all steel running gear sported by the King Tiger. These wheels were were precipitated by rubber shortages and were staggered 2 wheels to a row to allow easier changes of damaged inside wheels (the earlier wheel staggering pattern required the removal of several wheels in order to change one inside wheel). The appearance of this running gear on all 3 late war vehicles was almost identical

[karch]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I believe the F also had a thicker forward hull roof to help with that deflect-off-mantlet-into-hull problem.

I also seem to recall the 'King' Tiger wasn't referred to that way by German forces. It might have been originally coined by the British(?), and still later picted up by the German propaganda machine because they liked the sound of it. But it's not at all official

Now that makes a lot of sense!!!

[ramor]

Along with other modifications the ausf F was to receive an improved gearbox and transmission (type AK 7-400)and mechanical brakes identical to the Tiger II. The hull top armor would be doubled to 25mm and the ball mount was modified to accept the mg 42. The Panzerturm Schmal was much smaller than the original turret in order to accomplish several objectives, namely reduce weight, simplify production, reduce the frontal area, eliminate the originals shot trap problems, and enable a larger gun to be fitted. It was developed as an independent project by Daimler-Benz underneith the direction of Dr. Wunderlich and assisted by Col Henrici, a gunnery expert from Waffenprufamt 6, while Kniepkampf was in overall charge of both the Panther II and Tiger II projects. It was to have a built in stereoscopic range finder and gyrosabilizer for both the sight and the gun based on the ones fitted on American tanks ( experiments were carried out with a captured gyrostabilizer mounted on a Panther G doubling its accuracy and firepower). It was also designed to allow instant conversion of any vehicle to a command tank roll by having radio mounting brackets and aerial on every vehicle allowing a unit commander to plug in his ultra shortwave radio to any vehicle should his become incapacitated. The new turret proved a very succesful design which took the same ring diameter of the old turret but would have taken 30% less time to make while providing up to 30% more armor protection. To adapt the main gun to fit in the Saukopf mantlet the recuperater and buffer cylinder were re-situated below the gun. The compresser for the barrel blowout apparatus was eliminated and compressed air was obtained instead from an additional cylinder which was kept charged by the guns recoil. All of these changes allowed the wide welded cradle in the original Panther to be dispensed with and also allowed for the elimination of a need for a muzzle brake even though the recoil forces had been increased from 12 to 18 tons. An L-100 version of the 75 was proposed( but may have pushed beyond the metalurgy capabilities of the time)as well as the possibility of mounting the King Tiger's 88. Infrared night vision was also a desired option.

Ideas for improving the engines compression ratio and fuel injection were also toyed with as well as the possibility for adding a supercharger( along with the addition of a second cooling pump and modified coolant distribution.

All in all it could have proved a formidible fighting vehicle ( and my favorite choice for a what if vehicle to be included in CMBB over others choices of the Maus or Sturm Tiger). Facing these vehicles with Shermans at range would have been a daunting task and it was lucky for the Allies that they never went beyond the prototype stage.

[jeffsmith]

at the Patton Museum

the board that had the description of the Panther 2 Hull with the Panther I turret referred to a photo of a prototype that had a Panther I hull with the Panther 2 Turret

I was never able to locate that photo

[PzKpfw 1]

Their realy wern't many difrences between the Ausf.G & F chassis. The major difrence was the turret armor protection Ie:

Panther F Schmalturm *Armor Protection Ausf.G in ( )'s

Turret roof fore - 40mm @ 90^ ^) (16mm @ 5.5^).

Turret roof aft - 40mm @ 90^ (16mm @ 90^).

Gun mantlet - 150mm (100mm curved).

Turret front - 120mm @ 20^ (100mm @ 12^).

Turret side - 60mm @ 25^ (45mm @ 25^)

Turret rear - 60mm @ 25^ (45mm @ 25^).

Hull roof fore - 40-25mm @ 25^ (40-16mm @ 90^)

Hull armor basicly remained the same (except for hull roof armor) as the Ausf.G F changes to chassis:

- changes to the armor casting for the glacis & ball mount.

- thicker hull roof armor, going back to the front of the turret race.

- Slideing driver/radio operator hatches.

- MP44 used in place of MG 34 in ball mount.

- Fug 5 SR radio only in hull.

*See: Jentz Germany's Panther Tank pp.108 -112.

Regards, John Waters

[ August 09, 2002, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]

[Doug Beman]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I believe the F also had a thicker forward hull roof to help with that deflect-off-mantlet-into-hull problem.

I also seem to recall the 'King' Tiger wasn't referred to that way by German forces. It might have been originally coined by the British(?), and still later picted up by the German propaganda machine because they liked the sound of it. But it's not at all official

The conical shape of the mantlet went a long way toward preventing shot deflections into the hull roof. Late Panther Gs had a little chin at the lower edge of their curved mantlet to do this, but the conical mantlet was more efective.

The Porsche-designed turret (only 50-60 produced) of King Tigers had this same problem, while the Henschel turret had a conical mantlet.

DjB