Very Interesting quote on MG lethality

[Phantom Captain]

found this reading through some sights, interesting i thought as to the debates on MG lethality in CM.

During the Market-Garden operation alone, Tex McMorries accounted for about 100 German deaths. He belonged to the '30 in one day' cult of 501st machinegunners, achieving that score with his LMG at Eerde and later up on the dike west of Arnhem. Even with the machinegun, these kills did not come easily. It was not a simple matter of 'mowing them down', as in the movies. Al Lisk of F/501 says: "I'm of the opinion that with a machinegun, you're going to get as many as you can get with the first burst, then after that, the enemy is taking cover and returning fire." And so it was at the Eerde fight on 24 September, 1944. The Germans attacked with tanks and infantry after an intense artillery preparation. Tex's machinegun accounted for 38 of the enemy and was instrumental in halting the attack. The tanks held back when they spotted a phony minefield, planted as a ruse by American troops before the battle. Tex wrote in his diary: "Germans made an all out attack-they are giving my position priority. They have thrown approximately 600 rounds of artillery within a 50 yard radius of my position. They have used tanks and many machineguns. I got 38 and wounded others. They are smart. Only once did I get two with the same burst, and they were stretcher bearers."

taken from: http://www.101airborneww2.com/

under the war stories section.

[kburns24]

What class going after stretcher bearers.

[Capricornelius]

Some people lose their sense of humanity in wars. I can imagine that would happen easily in such a horrendous situation.

[zukkov]

thanks for the link on the 101st. good site!

[Capricornelius]

Your Dad really took part in Overlord as one of those famous Screaming Eagles? Cool (but also horribly saddening). Which Parachute Infantry Regiment did he join?

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Lord Dragon:

Only once did I get two with the same burst, and they were stretcher bearers.

ouch.

and there I was reading all these ryan books, thinking that operation market garden was the last major battle where there was still chivalry and honor, respect for red cross etc. thanks for clearing that up.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Lord Dragon:

They have thrown approximately 600 rounds of artillery within a 50 yard radius of my position.

What kind of rounds were they ? Not very big and effective I would imagine if they get 600 of them within 50 yards of his position and not one hit the man or the machine gun.

[lcm1947]

Yeah I kind of wonder about the size of the shells where they couldn't take out a guy with that many shells in that kind of space. Not trying to take anything away from the post it is an interesting one but just seems a bit much to me. As far as him stating about taking out the two medic's let's just hope it was simply a matter of fact not bragging. Not sure but I strongly believe that back in that war there was still honor and that trying to actually kill medic's and such was not the norm even if it is today. And in which I am saddened to see. This is not to attack the poster or take away from an interesting post which it is.

[Capricornelius]

I realise weaponry and firepower today has advanced, bullets become smaller, etc. but many SAS books I've read regularly go on about how it takes an incredible amount of ammo just to a score a few hits after an initial surprise attack. I've read about folks unloading gimpies (about 200 rounds) without hitting anyone.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Capricornelius:

[snips]I've read about folks unloading gimpies (about 200 rounds) without hitting anyone.

You *can't* unload a GPMG if you have a competent number two. It fires disintegrating link -- no.2 should be clipping extra lengths onto the belt as long as there is ammo available. I once had the immense pleasure of putting a thousand rounds of belted blank through a GPMG in little more than a minute. Shortly thereafter, I had the slightly less immense pleasure of cleaning the thing.

All the best,

John.

[Capricornelius]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Capricornelius:

[snips]I've read about folks unloading gimpies (about 200 rounds) without hitting anyone.

You *can't* unload a GPMG if you have a competent number two. It fires disintegrating link -- no.2 should be clipping extra lengths onto the belt as long as there is ammo available. I once had the immense pleasure of putting a thousand rounds of belted blank through a GPMG in little more than a minute. Shortly thereafter, I had the slightly less immense pleasure of cleaning the thing.

All the best,

John.</font>

[rhudat]

very good abn. sight. i was with 3/187th,101abn/ambl for 5 years in the early 70s.

jumpin outta good airplanes and helecopters. what more could ya ask for. :cool:

[Phantom Captain]

Well,

In reply to everyone talking about killing the stretcher bearer's I must say the War is messy and people get killed. I would imagine being in a position on an mg, recieving incoming arty, tank and bullets, the guy was probably shooting at anything that moved. I mean think about ducking, getting slammed around, smoke, dirt, noise, adrenaline, etc. This guy though, Tex, was a fierce killer. Go back and read more of the stories on the site if you are interested. There is a brief segment where he talks about a bunch of men standing around talking about how they are going to sneak over and take out the german's and he, instead of talking about it, just goes and does the work with his knife. Here is another quote, taken from the same site that kinda shows what I mean. War is Hell, War makes people killers. I'm not condoning his killing of the stretcher bearers but it's very hard to judge a man in an incomprehensible situation. I read another quote in "Band of Brother's" actually, can't remember by who, but it was basically that only a combat soldier can judge another combat soldier's actions in wartime.

"The WW2 101st Airborne produced many officers whose names will long be remembered: Generals Maxwell Taylor, Tony McAuliffe, West Point-trained tacticians like LTC Ewell and Kinnard, who have risen to the top echelons of the military. But you will not find one among them that knew or was expected to know the art of killing, perfecting it to the degree achieved by some of the enlisted men. The best and toughest of the paratroopers were cold, fearless killers, who went to great extremes to kill the enemy. Around this hard core of fearless killers, was built the greatest military machine of any war, the 101st Airborne."-

Pfc Melton 'Tex'McMorries' Company 'G' 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment

[athkatla]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Capricornelius:

[snips]I've read about folks unloading gimpies (about 200 rounds) without hitting anyone.

You *can't* unload a GPMG if you have a competent number two. It fires disintegrating link -- no.2 should be clipping extra lengths onto the belt as long as there is ammo available. I once had the immense pleasure of putting a thousand rounds of belted blank through a GPMG in little more than a minute. Shortly thereafter, I had the slightly less immense pleasure of cleaning the thing.

All the best,

John.</font>

[The_Capt]

I pull two things re: CM from this.

a) MGs are far more supressive than they are in the game. The author states the whole company would go to ground when under fire.

The protection from foxholes is undermodeled, as the author claims to have survived one hell of a barrage.

As to killing of stretcher bearers..if they were armed than it was legal and made perfect sense, particularly if it was one of those types of engagements.

If anybody thinks war is honorable or has rules they should talk to more Vets.

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Lord Dragon:

...Around this hard core of fearless killers, was built the greatest military machine of any war, the 101st Airborne."-

Pfc Melton 'Tex'McMorries' Company 'G' 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment

Sure...

If this is the same guy from the first post, then I'd take his reports with a grain of salt.

[Incognito]

I don't get it...tons of ammo and useless assault attemps against 1 mg position :confused: :eek:

just smoke their LOS orcall for few companys "crack" shotty's as snipa job, i mean how hard can it be? :confused: :eek:

[The_Capt]

Originally posted by SpaceHamster:

I don't get it...tons of ammo and useless assault attemps against 1 mg position :confused: :eek:

just smoke their LOS orcall for few companys "crack" shotty's as snipa job, i mean how hard can it be? :confused: :eek:

Ho Man! That is funny on soooo many levels...

[Phantom Captain]

Sure...

If this is the same guy from the first post, then I'd take his reports with a grain of salt.

I think that may be true, but also I do believe that in war, most soldiers do their job's, deal with the horrors etc. and try to maintain some semblance of sanity and normality. Of course, there are always the type that find they love war and do get off on killing. I think we can place Tex with this group. If you read the site you will see that this is so. He really did get off on killing as many as he could. Such is the nature of war.

[Sarge Saunders]

Hey let's not be too hard on Tex.

It is odd that I was just thinking about something like this the other day. Having never served in the military, I often think about the kind of decisions I would make as a Platoon LT. or Seargent.

My thinking the other day was how I would prefer to keep my guys alive whenever possible...and still accomplish the mission. I think this would be an honorable goal for Army leaders. I'm sure most of them think that. So with this in mind, who the heck would I choose as a machine gunner for example. Those guys would definately take alot of incoming fire due to their BIG GUN!

Answer: The meanest, baddest son of a bitch I could find. Someone more interested in killing than he is afraid of dying.

Tex sounds like a perfect machine gunner to me!

FWIW, an army MUST have guys like him sprinkled liberally throughout the units. Lead by example and his is the example of fortitude in combat.

-Sarge

[ June 27, 2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]

[Phantom Captain]

Sarge,

I agree with you totally. I wasn't trying to be hard on Tex, that's why i put that bit in before about only "combat soldiers being able to judge another combat soldier's actions during wartime." Of course, any of us would want this guy on our side. And of course, he is doing exactly what the army wants him to do. He is just really really good at it! It does remind me of how PC the world tries to be these days. Ex. Afghanistan or Iraq, Palestinians against the Israelis. People need to realize that in war people get killed, plain and simple. It is honorable to try and avoid civillian casualties as we try to do but they do happen. War is nasty business, it's about death and destruction, people die. No getting around it. To make an uproar about civillian casualties, etc. during wartime is non-sensical to me. Seems to be the very definition of war.

This is not condoning terror either. To blow oneself up at a wedding full of women and children is cowardly and anti-human and I would never support it. Just had to clear that up so someone wouldn't take my above comments and apply them to terrorism. Whole different ballgame for me there.

[ June 27, 2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Lord Dragon ]

[Sarge Saunders]

LD,

Agreed! Thanks for the interesting post.

-Sarge

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Sarge Saunders:

Hey let's not be too hard on Tex.(...)So with this in mind, who the heck would I choose as a machine gunner for example. Those guys would definately take alot of incoming fire due to their BIG GUN!

Answer: The meanest, baddest son of a bitch I could find. Someone more interested in killing than he is afraid of dying.

Tex sounds like a perfect machine gunner to me!

FWIW, an army MUST have guys like him sprinkled liberally throughout the units. Lead by example and his is the example of fortitude in combat.

-Sarge

that's the way it is in reality. nobody with a sane mind wants to be the machine gunner in any of today's armed forces infantry. only guys with an overinflated macho ego strive to be the badass macho with the big gun. anybody sane simply realizes that in the reality of daily army life all it means is that you are the poor bloody SOB who is lugging that 20-pound piece of sh*t wherever your squad is strolling to in the field. and in wartime, as the machine gunner you are the most conspicous and likeable target anywhere. even a higher priority target than stretcher bearers it would seem to me.

in other words, no need to be extra soft on tex, the likelyhood of him being a nut case is definitely increased since the percentage of nut cases among machine gunners is definitely higher than among the rest of grunts, just IMHO.

[charlie don't surf]

I agree on not being soft on this Tex guy...I was once in a line to receive some pay while in Saudi Arabia and the line stretched past an open manhole where two Pakistani's were working.

Long story short, a GI picks up this big fricking rock and lobs it into the open manhole striking one of the guys in the head - man, that rock was bigger than a brick! Most of the troops in the line turned to watch the asshole and his buddy crack up and laugh as the Pakistani worker slowly emerged from the manhole rubbing his head with this look of pain and shock on his face...an officer jumped in and dressed the guy down...

Anyway, my point is that some people are just plain mean. The army is just a slice of the country's population....

[Sarge Saunders]

Hold on a second guys!

Read the entire section:

http://www.101airborneww2.com/warstories5.html

This guys was a soldier. Nowhere is it mentioned any brutality. OK! He mentions the stretcher bearers being shot in the middle of a fight. That happens. The stretcher may not have been medics....could have been regular.

After the war, this guy went on tho teach his craft at the Machine Gunners school. So he knew his ****. Not just some bastard they gave a machine gun to and says...go kill em Tex.

Read it. It's fine to have a thread discuss mean soldiers and brutality and such, but I don't think Tex is in that category. Anyway, just read it and judge for yourself.

-Sarge

[ June 27, 2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]