Very Interesting quote on MG lethality

[charlie don't surf]

My apologies - after just reading the entire thing it seems this guy was just doing his thing well - whether or not he was a thug or not is anyone's guess...taking out the stretcher bearers was just a bit outside, though.

Having never been in combat myself it is hard to imagine what I might be capable of if I were there.

[Sarge Saunders]

No Problem. I read a book called Foot Soldier by Roscoe Blunt. Click Here

Lots of interesting stories this guy has....

Anyway, he was in a special anti-mine squad and seemed to have lots of extra time without supervision. So he was always just going out on his own to find Germans to kill. No orders or anything. He just liked to hunt the enemy. I found that to be a bit odd. But reading the entire book, there was nothing in there that made him seem anything but an normal person.

Strange things happen to normal men in war I think.

-Sarge

[ June 27, 2002, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]

[ParaBellum]

I agree with you guys. War IS hell.

There is a saying :"The first thing that dies in war is innocence."

But some things in Tex' stories really give me chills...

"Few men have lived the toughest parts of war. (for example)-being discovered by civilians while on patrol behind enemy lines, a soldier, right or wrong, does what he has to do, not to jeopardize the safety of the patrol."

That sounds to me like killing unarmed, innocent people.

Warcrimes anyone?

[ June 27, 2002, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[Lee]

ParaBellum: Could you be a little more specific about the context of that quote?

If you're talking about meeting up with French civilians (who's side we're on

and we're trying to liberate), that might be one thing. But if your behind

the lines on recon in Germany and a some German civilians run into your patrol,

you certainly can't have them reporting your group to the nearest German

HQ and getting all your men killed. What choice do you have? You might not

have much, depending on the exact circumstances.

[audace]

Yeah, in war many times there's no space for humanity, as many honorable men try to tell us.

Many times I've read that the North African war was somehow a "good" war, as there was respect between the opponents, etc etc.

Bullsh*t.

Plane strafing pilots in parachutes, bombing field hospital with big red cross over them, soldiers killing prisoners, etc etc.

It always happened.

I'm reading a book about this "Folgore" Para. Div. paratrooper, and sometimes it just amaze me how many times this guy killed in anger. War is really an ugly beast.

Here are some pass of the book (which is called btw "Folgore... e si moriva" - "Folgore... and there was death" or something like that).

I think it could be interesting.

6 April 1943 - Mareth Line

- Since this morning we understood that this day would have been something particular.

The "squadron" (they called it the white squadron, as befare they released the bombs, they threw a white flare) came only once today, but for all day there are planes high there that circle around us.

The few news that come to us are not too good.

On the American front (I guess Marocco), our troops have conquered "strategic positions", and that means that they retreated, and so at any moments we could wake up and find us among the British in front of us and the Americans at our back.

Night has just come and a great artillery barrage start in our lines. We can't get our heads up for 1 centimeter for many hours. Near me are Crosti and Ghezzi and in the great sounds of exploding shells we try to contact each others. After 3, 4 hours we see that the Artillery is beating longer back us, and experience teach us that now it's the moment to be ready as the english fire with the artillery further back only when his men are near their objective.

In the air there are tens of bengalas, and when Crosti, first of us, get his head up of his hole in the desert, I can hear him screaming "Bloody hell, they're already here".

In a flash we are all 3 in our ready positions; Crosti and Ghezzi have their machine guns (Berette MAB38), I have my light machine gun (Breda 30 LMG) with a box of ammunitions nearby and a bag containing several Balilla (red granades used by the Italian army during WW2).

About 40 meters ahead of us a group of men is advancing near a carrier. Crosti yells to wait until they're nearer. C'mon, I can only wait some seconds and then I start to fire in the group.

The Sergent and the Leutenent fire them too.

I don't fire in full auto, but fire, shots after shots, trying to be as precise as possible.

We get some of them , we know it because we hear them screaming. Standing there are about 5 or 6 that are advancing near the carrier and now are not further than 20 meters from us.

I finished my 20 clip loader, I get my bag full of granades and the first Balilla fly in the group. Ghezzi take 2 of them and now he's standing with me and Crosti with the machine guns.

To die for to die, we're out! Bullets everywhere, maybe they got me in my left arm, as I feel it's wet and it's painful. I let fly another Balilla between 2 soldiers that are few meters from me. Ghezzi let them fly too. The carrier is there, ma Crosti is the one of us that get it with a burst in the interior from 1 meter in the above.

I throw the bag and now I have the Beretta in my right hand, there's no pity for anyone.

One of them, really tall, jump on me and try to get me, istinctively I put my head down and he slam with his face in my helmet. I can free for a second and I send him to God with an headshot from 10 centimeters.

Near me there's Crosti that is firing with his machine gun, like it's a club! The last one to fall back to our position is him.

We get back to our positions and we look ourselves in the faces. We're tired: Ghezzi has nothing, I have a little hole in my left arm and Crosti has his arms burned by his machineguns barrel. Well, yet it was good this time too! Ahead of us there's the carrier stopped and all are on the ground. We head them screaming , but we don't and can't do anything.

Some other guys from our platoon arrive byt for the rest of the night we only hear huge sounds near us. Ahead, nobody.

Light is coming and artillery begins again his work. Another hour in our holes and then the fire is further back. Now I'm the first to look ahead and I hear screaming "Folgore!" from the Battalion command area that it's 20 meters or so from us..

I can see there Lombardini that with his submachinegun is firing like a devil. From our outpost we can see him with his Alpin hat, but we can't see at who he's firing.

I stay like a fish! He's out there firing while screaming "Alarm, Alarm!". Is it possible that in our Folgore battalion only 4 people are alive?

[ June 28, 2002, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: audace ]

[audace]

Crosti is now out and is going near Lombardini while me and Ghezzi don't know what to do.

We see that our Leutenent, at midway, come back running. "C'mon. There ahead there's an english patrol. If we go that way we can get them from their sde". Bloody hell, here we go again.

We go out and we're not targets. I feel so dumb and incredible. Ahead of us, maybe 400 meters hundreds of tanks and vehicles that advance with their infantry like a parade. On out heads their artillery is screaming and now our artillery is beating them too, finally.

It's not good to be standing for so long.We get down, ahead on our right. After 10 meters, now we see the english. It's a group of 6 soldeirs and they have an LMG pointed towards our lines on the ground.

We look ahead and they don't see us since we're on their flank.

We don't see Lombardini anymore and we can't hear his submachinegun anymore. I toggled the secure in one Balilla and as an english saw me, I don't stand there thinking, and I get on them.

I launch my bomb some meters away and I stand there like an idiot on the ground.

I can't do anything else but going in the dance; I take my Beretta 38 like a club too this time and I try to punch one.

Now it's happening to me what happened to Crosti; the hot barrels burned my skin and I feel a damn pain. But there's not time to think, I kick one in the face with my leg, and then fire until there are bullets and then run away in our position.

Ghezzi comes to me and tells me that maybe the Leutenent has been hit. What do we do?

We can't leave him there.

Among the enemy tanks that are advancing, the english and our artillery that is firing, here it's an inferno.

"I'm going" tells me Ghezzi in his northerns Torino slang. "I'm coming too" and off we go.

The Leutenent is there at 10 meters and as he see us he close one eye and smile. Nothing broken, that's good.

While he was runnig he jumped by himself.

We go back to our position and we're ready to serve the next english patrol, and in fact they come.

Again, the alarm is screamed by Lombardini that, all by himself, is standing in front of the Battalion command, and is firing with his submachinegun. I have my LMG that is working perfectly and since the english are coming straight in front of me I'm concentrated to don't disperse my bullets.

Every now and then, I look at our commander, and I'm waiting him to get hit soon.

I tell myself that either he's dumb or just crazy. I see him theren standing, calm as a statue while I'm here and only my eyes can be seen from the other side, and I must admit I'm scared as hell now.

The thing goes on as it is now for the long part of the afternoon. We have stopped the english in our sector, but at a moment someone comes to us to tell us that on our right, Caroli's company have had big encounters and that there are many wounded men to pick up.

And so, Crosti, Ghezzi and your truly go out once again!

A corporal from Trieste is our guide; we enter in a big canal (maybe one of those canal withouth water in the desert) and we follow him.

After half a KM, we hear some sounds and voices; english withouth a doubt.

Me and the Leutenent go near a very small sand hill and we see a terrible scene; they're picking up some italian soldiers, there are even some Folgore, and to whom can't get up or is not fast enough, they shot them in the head.

Me and Crosti look each other in the eyes and he tells me "We have made 30, we can make 31" (an italian saying).

I tells Ghezzi if he can give me his MAB, and then we carefully take aim, before we let our bullets fly. We can't jump in teh big canal, too deep, but we can't stay there either. Ghezzi and the corporal watch our shoulders while the Leuytenent and myself go where we expect the english to come.

And in fact, here they come the bastards, and 2 of them who are the first to see us, as soon as they see us let their hands up.

I'm 10 meters away. I then gently go closer, and from 1 meter I fire in full auto in their head area.

Then I run back to our position, near Crosti.

And let's hope that this is everything for toda.

We come back and it's almost night, and we go to the medic tent.

Captain Lombardini sees us and tells Crosti how it went. Then he comes to me and tells me "You were good, but remember that you have a family waiting for you. Don't risk too much!"

Night has fallen and ahead of us there's big moviment.

Not in the "Folgore" zone, but somewhere else the ebglish have passed.

An order arrive to load everything and retreat to Tunisia.

Everytime there's a problem, the high command gently always ask the Folgore to go there.

Many times I've seen all those "Mussolini boys" and there are some scared guys there.

The english didn't pass again on the Folgore front.

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Lee:

ParaBellum: Could you be a little more specific about the context of that quote?

Sorry, Lee, but the author of the site didn't give much background on this one. It's only stated "He (Tex) also wrote:...".

But still I disagree with you.

The Kriegsvölkerrecht (international law of war) is quite clear in this case.

Translated by me from german:

II.1.) Military (combat) actions may directly only be used against armed enemy personal and military objects.

V.1.) Civilians must not be attacked. They enjoy protection for their personal life, their honour, their family rights and religious beliefs. Under special protection are children, women and sick persons.

I disagree that there are differences whether the civilians are "allies" or "enemies".

Civilians are civilians. They are not armed and must not be attacked.

What is the next step?

On a patrol you make prisoners. They slow the advance, maybe endanger the mission. So, now what's to be done with them?

The same as with the civilians you met that morning?

[Traject0ry]

Professional soldier sees things through a clear glass. He has a mission which he must complete. The cost might be a few stretcher-bearers or civilians shot. It might be the loss of good troopers in his unit. In the end he seeks to complete his orders. If he needs to shoot people in order to be done with his orders he will shoot. If he has to hit a little boy with a shovel he might. Killing enemy "without order" as in "during stand down time" is very common. Soldier exists to kill the enemy. That is his duty and obligation. Still he knows to stay his hand if the objective needs to be acquired through stealth and contemplated action.

Good professional soldier is bold, arrogant and has an ability to ignore value of human life when necessary. Civilians, stretcher-bearers and such might become obstacles to his mission in which case he has to deal with them quickly and efficiently. If the situation is grave and action needs to be taken fast it gets messy. If he considers civilians as a threat to the completion of his mission they are to be taken care of. I have heard of great number of people who suffocated in a small locked basement. I have heard of people been herded and shot like cattle. In the former case the soldier decided to risk it and save a few lives. In the end his nice thoughts mattered little.

You guys can wear your flower hats and skirts (nothing against scotsmen here...) if you like but in the ditch under fire I choose the meanest and nastiest guy beside me if I can. If I am good enough he will see me through the trouble as he needs me in order to get the job done. If I am not good enough I'm dead anyway.

Too bad that these guys have no place to be in during peacetime. Usually they get into serious trouble in no time and have grand clashes with all kinds of authorities. On the field of combat it is the guy who is ready and eager to kill who tells you about yesterday.

-T

[ June 28, 2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Traject0ry ]

[Traject0ry]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

I disagree that there are differences whether the civilians are "allies" or "enemies".

Civilians are civilians. They are not armed and must not be attacked.

What is the next step?

On a patrol you make prisoners. They slow the advance, maybe endanger the mission. So, now what's to be done with them?

The same as with the civilians you met that morning?

I have certain knowledge that leaders are trained in certain armies to complete their mission at any cost. They are not ordered to shoot civilians or prisoners. Perhaps they just do not take prisoners or are forced to rely on force in order to get the job done. You guys really need to wake up. There are very little rules in the war.

[Tarquelne]

You guys can wear your flower hats and skirts (nothing against scotsmen here...)

Thank you, I'd hate to think you were saying something that both women _and_ scotsmen might take offense at.

in the ditch under fire I choose the meanest and nastiest guy beside me if I can.

I'll take someone only as mean and nasty as necessary. (That's _far_ less mean and nasty tthan it's possible to be.) He'll get the job done. He'll try not to "take out" enemy strecher bearers, making it that much less likely that they'll target ours. If it's necessary to shoot some civilians on patrol, he'll do it. Civilians _do_ get killed in war nowdays. Lots of them, it's part of the nature of the conflict. However, I won't have to deal with my "buddy" killing someone just because he fancies thier kit.

I like to think that a professional soldier will kill without hesitation, and be bold, but arrogance, misogyny and _ignoring_ the value of human life are only virtues in a barbarian warrior*, not a professional soldier.

*For example: Most Hun warlords and WWII Japanese officers.

[ June 28, 2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Tarquelne]

I disagree that there are differences whether the civilians are "allies" or "enemies".

Civilians are civilians. They are not armed and must not be attacked.

What is the next step?

The next step? How about "strategic" bombing of civilian residences? Both sides in WWII specifically targeted civilians - they both thought it was a good idea at the time, the best way to end the war. That would, of course, pretty much put an end to ALL the deaths, on both sides. (Victorious Nazi post war atrocities being the unfortunate exception, of course.) A soldier has to balance death and destruction among his own, and death and destruction wrecked on the enemy, both civlian and combatant. I think it's understood that the scales are somewhat tipped against the enemy.

BTW, I hope the more "hawkish" will agree that enemy and "friendly" civlians should _not_ be treated differently. Niether should be harmed if possible. Both must be killed if they threaten a "complete at all costs" mission. Eh?

[charlie don't surf]

I'm very hawkish but I don't agree that non-combatants should be killed in order to accomplish a mission - most of the time you have choices...troops in Mogadishu during the firefight recently made famous in Blackhawk Down threw flashbang grenades to disperse a group of children being used as human shields by a Somali gunman. The children dispersed and the gunman was shot - problem solved. Later in the battle the soldiers didn't really have any other options but to shoot into a crowd of civilians in order to get the gunmen manning a crew-served weapon or whatever.

In other words, do what you need to but don't go overboard (which is rather subjective)...

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Traject0ry:

Perhaps they just do not take prisoners or are forced to rely on force in order to get the job done. You guys really need to wake up. There are very little rules in the war.

But where do you draw the line? A single man who could endanger your platoon? Kill him.

A village where someone shoots at your men? OK, order an airstirke!

Reminds me of certain actions of German soldiers when fighting partisans. Take a few hostages and kill them if you don't get information.

Hey, if it's for the mission...

Sorry for the crude examples, but where do you actually draw the line? Is there any?

I've been a soldier (thank god during peacetime), trained as a sniper/sharpshooter and I had lots of discussions with my comrades about these topic.

I'm targeting an enemy soldier 500m away, he's sitting against a tree, smoking a cigarette. No danger for me. Could I kill him cold-blooded?

I'm really glad I never was in a situation where I had to make such decisions.

[JMcGuire]

I'm targeting an enemy soldier 500m away, he's sitting against a tree, smoking a cigarette. No danger for me. Could I kill him cold-blooded?

Cold blooded? What kind of soldier isn't willing to kill an enemy soldier? Once he becomes an enemy and picks up a gun, he's fair game, period. I don't care if he's visiting the latrine or sleeping. Do you suppose SAC pilots buzzing around in B2's and B52's check to see whether their targets are sleeping or are armed and at their posts?

Let me put it another way. I'm not in the military, nor have I ever been, nor will I be (they wouldn't want me these days, heh). But if the US was invaded, I'd certainly break out the guns and ammo, and I'd fully expect an enemy soldier to kill ME. Otherwise, he'd be getting the same.

To even consider that one of our own soldiers might not kill an enemy soldier in a time of war is unfathomable to me.

[charlie don't surf]

It depends on what the rules of engagement are, but I would assume an enemy combatant with a weapon is fair game with no qualms.

[Sarge Saunders]

Originally posted by charlie don't surf:

It depends on what the rules of engagement are, but I would assume an enemy combatant with a weapon is fair game with no qualms.

Hmmm, Does that mean no artillery missions against Regimental HQs? Hate to hit one of those unarmed Army clerks....

We sure are drawing a fine line. One that guys probably don't draw in combat.

(refering to unarmed enemy (not PWs or Civilians.)

-Sarge

[ June 28, 2002, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Sarge Saunders ]

[charlie don't surf]

Rules of engagement means that you are allowed to fire only if a, b or c happens. Sometimes an area is designated a free-fire zone where you can shoot anything that moves and sometimes you can only shoot someone that is armed. Personally I think calling in artillery on enemy combatants in a chowline or doing whatever would be fair game - whether they were armed or not. Basically, if they pose a threat to you then take them out.

It gets a little more difficult with a situation like, say the scene in Saving Private Ryan, where the squad runs up against the machine gun nests.

The squad votes to bypass the enemy as it has nothing to do with their mission - Miller decides to take them out.

[ June 28, 2002, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: charlie don't surf ]

[Ghost of the 90th]

I have taped the oral histories of 2 WWII vets. One was the grandfather of a friend and he served in The 4th Rangers in Italy and later with The Devil's Brigade (1st Special Service Force).

It is unlikely that you would ever meet a tougher man then this Ranger Vet. My friend described his grandfather as being messed up from the war. And said the only thing his grandfather had ever been good at was killing. After a 5 hour interview with him, I agreed wholeheartedly.

He described killing civilians, both by accident and on purpose as well as killing prisoners and surrendering Germans.

One story he told was of a group of civs that approached them in some dug in positions. The civs(Italians) offered haircuts to the men. The men obliged. Later that day once the civs left, they were hit with insanely accurate mortar fire on their dug in positions.

It did not take a genius to figure out how the Germans figured out where they were. A few days later the same civs approached the same unit in some more dug in positions. Well, you can guess what happened next. Their was definitly extra linguine at a few Italian homes that night.

You people spouting off "rules" of war and articles of engagements yada yada. What would you have done? This was not covered by any rules the Geneva convention ever foresaw. It is easy to sit in judgement of such things. Acting like you would take the high road.

Put yourself in the soldiers position, risking your life and limb every moment, under maximum physical and mental stress, the likes of which most of us will never encounter. Friends dying around you, death all around you, so much death that you become inurred to it.

The vets we talk to today, our grandfathers, are here today talking to us and holding there Great Grand Children on there knee because they did what they had to do to survive. In many instances it was not pretty. Some still bear the scars and mental anguish from there actions. Both vets I interviewed cried at one point or another when the emotions came rushing back in.

Bad mouth them if you will and some may deserve it, but I think a jury of their peers would understand. We may never understand, and hopefully never have to.

Ghost358th

[jrcar]

Originally posted by Traject0ry:

Professional soldier sees things through a clear glass. He has a mission which he must complete. The cost might be a few stretcher-bearers or civilians shot.

Good professional soldier is bold, arrogant and has an ability to ignore value of human life when necessary. Civilians, stretcher-bearers and such might become obstacles to his mission in which case he has to deal with them quickly and efficiently.

-T

A professional soldier who thinks this way needs retraining.

Deliberately killing civilians or unarmed combatants is a WARCRIME and anyone doing so should be punished accordingly. I know of no "professional" army who trains their soldiers in any other manner.

As an ex Army officer I have had the occasion to counsel the very rare soldier who has spoken this way. It is against international law and against the law of any country who has signed up to the Geneva Conventions.

I do accept that things things happend in the past, and I can understand the situations that cause it. It still does not make it right.

If the mission requires the delibereate murder of civilians then you need to do it a different way.

Cheers

Rob

[Capricornelius]

Originally posted by jrcar:

If the mission requires the delibereate murder of civilians then you need to do it a different way.

Cheers

Rob

What kind of ungodly mission would require that??? Ending WWII???

[dizee]

hmm well...

i dont want to discredit this tex guy, but there are many many warstories out there who are over exeregated or even pure fictional.

i mean he "killed" 38 germans.did he killed everyone he hit?or did he hit 38(including wounded)?or did he killed 38 and wounded several others?well, then i would like to see a report of that platoon of terribly newbish german soldiers who couldnt manage to take a position defended by a single machinegunner, with the support of 600 rounds of artillery and tanks.

[Tarquelne]

You people spouting off "rules" of war and articles of engagements yada yada. What would you have done? This was not covered by any rules the Geneva convention ever foresaw.

Actually, I think "spies" are covered in some rules.

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by JMcGuire:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I'm targeting an enemy soldier 500m away, he's sitting against a tree, smoking a cigarette. No danger for me. Could I kill him cold-blooded?

Cold blooded? What kind of soldier isn't willing to kill an enemy soldier? Once he becomes an enemy and picks up a gun, he's fair game, period. I don't care if he's visiting the latrine or sleeping...

To even consider that one of our own soldiers might not kill an enemy soldier in a time of war is unfathomable to me.</font>

[The_Capt]

Jeez this thread got deep in a hurry...

Gentlemen,

What makes a good soldier? Very good question. Actually a single minded killer is quite dangerous on the battlefield. A team player who understands and recognizes the implications of his actions on the group as a whole is a far better asset.

A good soldier has a switch on the back of his head and when I flip it he turns into the killer I need and when I switch it off I get the guy in the guard tower I need.

Now as to cold blooded..well now we are talking about the officer corps. A good officer is absolutely lethal. He will kill his own men as well as the enemy. All that matters is the mission. A better officer is one which will get his men killed when neccessary and they love him for it. These are few and far between.

The object in war is too do mare damage to the other side than they do to you. It doesn't get more complicated than that.

Now as to civies and rules of war..well the trick there is to maintain some sort of grip on humanity as the situation around you strips it away.

You will find that after a few months in a combat environment, most soldiers don't give flying frick about human life. It would be like watching porn, 24 hrs a day seven days a week for months. It would get boring and no longer turn you on pretty quick. Same with death and destruction.

Deep in, you get to the point that if your boss says shoot women and children, your main concern is cleaning the weapons afterward. This is no joke. When you get home, then it kicks in and the pain and guilt start but while you are there it is like watching a movie.

Now a leaders job is to keep that morality in his sights and keep it there. Or good lads are raping and pillaging before you know it. No joke. Perfectly sane people become monsters when it all falls apart.

So the officer has to motivate, get the job done while killing his men to do so, and somehow make sure the whole team doesn't step over the edge.

I can assure you that we (Allies) killed, raped and pillaged civies on the Western Front. It happens in that environment. But the good thing about the Allies is that we tried to hold on, while units like the SS surrendered to the "terrible beauty" and slaughtered en masse. Due in large part to the fact there leadership had given in too.

In the end it is all about the mission. If you aren't there to get the job done..go home. The balancing act is to keep the troops disciplined and motivated to do that job and this doesn not involve killing civies or non-combatants. It may happen and often will be swept aside as an isolated incident but an officer will ensure the whole unit doesn't get into it or the whole team falls apart. This in war become the important "call".

The key is too remind them that what they do here will be there for the rest of their lives..very hard with 18 yr olds but then that is why we get the big bucks.

[JMcGuire]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

I don't know you, so I won't elaborate on what you just mentioned. I don't know if you ever served in the military. I don't know if you ever thought about what a soldier has to do during wartime.

-- snip --

Maybe I'm just a bad soldier, but I would have real problems killing civilians, POWs, or people who don't pose a danger towards me or my comrades.

I'll assume you didn't read my post before you replied. I've never been in the military, as I posted. I will never be, as I posted. I wasn't talking about killing civilians. That's completely unrelated to my post. Reading for comprehension. Try it.

If you're in the military and you have the opportunity to kill an armed enemy soldier, KILL HIM. That's YOUR JOB. Otherwise you're just another lame-ass milking the government for a free college education. Maybe I've read a little too much Col. Hackworth, but I think this country is rapidly filling up with Martha Stewart softies, and the real world doesn't work that way.

War is ugly, brutal, painful, and bad. And if you choose that career path, you'd better accept it pretty damned fast, because as a taxpayer I don't want to be buying your house, your cars, your kids' educations and whatever else, unless you're going to go out there and kill badguys and blow up other people's stuff.

It's really not that complicated.

[ June 28, 2002, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: JMcGuire ]