Dirty Vehicle Mods--Some Observations

[Bullethead]

I have nothing but admiration and thanks for the CM community's modders. However, the more mods I see, the more I think most of the modders are city boys who never have to deal with gravel roads, let alone cross-country driving. Most mods claiming to be "dirty" or "dusty" just don't have near enough filth on them.

A while back I posted up my observations of vehicles in the Gulf War. But these days I'm a fireman out in the sticks. While most of the local roads are paved, almost all driveways and parking lots are gravel. Just pulling into 1 of these in the course of a day, especially if it's rained at ANY point in the preceding week, is enough to require me to wash my firetruck.

Take a look at Gautrek's BA-6 and T-37. He puts more dirt on his vehicles than most guys, and I commend him for that. But just to put things in perspective, the amount of dirt on his BA-6 is in real life what I get on my firetruck after driving just a mile or 2 on a gravel road. If it's been dry, the dirt will be dust and my truck will look like the BA-6. If it's rained at any point in the previous week, it'll look more like his T-37, the dirt being more mud than dust. And if I have to go out in a hay field to fight a grass fire, my truck becomes so filthy that you can hardly see the red paint on the lower 3' of the sides.

Now think about WW2 Russia. The sources indicate that paved roads were very much the exception. Riding on the rollbahns during Barbarosa bathed everything in choking dust. So a brand new replacement vehicle driving from the railhead to its unit at the front would look at least as bad as Gautrek's BA-6, maybe worse, just from driving on the roads. Then you had the muddy seasons that were so bad that all operations had to be suspended. And in between, it doesn't seem to have been too arid in the summer. Glanz says it rained so much during Kursk that the mud seriously impeded German movement.

So I think Gautrek's on the right track. But I think he should add even more dirt to represent vehicles that have been in the field more than a few days

[MrNoobie]

right now the ground is too green, hopefully someone will mod some dry mud and mix it up in the terrain

EDIT: hmmm theyre showing saving private ryan right now and the tiger looks filthy, faded colors and what not, time to get back to modding

[ November 09, 2002, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: MrNoobie ]

[Bullethead]

You know, on the subject of making things dirty...

All these way cool uniform mods look right off the rack. How about putting some dirt on them, too? Hell, why not some with holes at the knees and patched at the elbows? Not quite the totally shredded "Sgt. Rock" look, but pretty filthy and somewhat ragged.

I mean, soldiers in the combat zone wear their clothes 24/7 for weeks straight while living in dirty, muddy holes in the ground. They hit the deck frequently and sometimes crawl through all kinds of spikey, snagging things.

[Rob Murray]

I agree with above statement but modders; please don't overdo the mud, rust & other filth. That just kills what otherwise is a great effort.

[Gordon]

Bullethead,

Please see Where's CMMOS thread.

Is this still too little grime for you?

Thanks,

Gordon

[Bullethead]

Gordon said:

Is this still too little grime for you?

Well, to be honest, I think they could all use some more dirt. The Churchill's pretty close, however. Also, I think the most of the recognition flags look a bit clean and shiny new compared to the vehicle they're on.

This is just my personal preference. I'll be quite happy with whatever mods come down the pipe and as few others share my tastes, feel free to blow me off

[tracer]

Yes, I understand what Bullethead is saying. The only thing I can't figure out is, well just learning about modding, and when I try to get the dirt and grim on a mod and I look at it in the game, it looks out of place, I agree with MrNoobie, everything else looks to nice and green. I was working on the grass to try to give it a more green dirt type effect, but do to my not having enough experience at modding yet, it is a slow process to do.

[Abbott]

One for Bullethead Tough day at the Station

[MrNoobie]

hmm i'll try out modding the ground with mud, TRY

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Bullethead:

You know, on the subject of making things dirty...

All these way cool uniform mods look right off the rack.

Exactly. But, while I agree with your viewpoint, for myself I arrived at the opposite conclusion: If tank mods weren't so filthy, they might have a wider 'market', since everyone can drop them in *one at a time* without making the troops et alia look ridiculous.

The alternative is to be required to download a filth mod for every single article of the game, which some here I suppose are more than willing to do, but... probably not everyone.

Eden

[Bullethead]

Abbott said:

One for Bullethead Tough day at the Station

Hehehe, that was bound to happen someday We never get a wrecked car for extrication practice. First, the really wrecked cars already have been cut up at the wreck scene, while the ones with minor damage get fixed. Second, the practice car needs to be in pretty good shape so it can be towed to the firestation and back without leaving fluids and wreckage all over the road. And most intact junked cars are filled with the usual amount and types of personal effects--maybe they got repossessed?

So the bottom line is, most cars we cut up in practice look quite drivable and the contents make them look like they still belong to somebody. Sometimes the junkyard guy marks them so the towtruck guy knows which ones to bring us, but if as often happens these guys are one in the same, there's no marking. None of the firemen have seen any of them before and the number of cars available for any exercise is always unknown until the time arrives. So if some civilian parks his car next to the hulks and walks off, there's no surprise at all if the firemen cut it up

[ November 10, 2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Bullethead ]

[Bullethead]

Eden Smallwood said:

while I agree with your viewpoint, for myself I arrived at the opposite conclusion: If tank mods weren't so filthy, they might have a wider 'market', since everyone can drop them in *one at a time* without making the troops et alia look ridiculous.

I've never thought in terms of how the various mods play together. I get nearly every mod that comes along because I'm a modslut, and when I have a choice I use the ones I like the best for their own sakes. So like for the Germans, I end up with some vehicles in ambush, some in mono, some in tricolor. I don't care as long as each individual mod looks "cool" as I define it. Besides, I think a mixture is realistic. It was so in my own unit in the Gulf War, with some vehicles being solid tan and others with the Euro brown spots still showing. Also, look at pics of any US WW2 airplane outfit. Some planes are OD, some are silver, and the national and unit insignia are different versions.

[MrNoobie]

yuck i think i'll stick to weathering the tanks...

[gautrek]

Thanks for the praise Bullethead.

This is more of what us modders want FEEDBACK good or bad.

Please bare in mind that a few of us modders are fairly new to this.In fact i my self have never done anything like this before.It is the first time i have installed and used anything like paintshop pro.

I am just learning how to put markings on at the moment

So if you think that you can't mod then give it a try as there can never be to many modders.

I am only doing the mods as i want them to look .My thinking is that all the photos or footage I have seen shows the vehicles either VERY dusty in the summer,s*** up to the eyeballs in the spring and autumn or frozen solid in the winter.

I find it a very hard thing to judge whats wanted but now i have had some feed back i know if i am doing the right thing or not.In fact i have toned down my next 2 mods so there is less mud(T26 1931,T70).But it looks like i will have to redo them.

Also these mods have been doing using Gordons standard dust and dirt BMPs.This is the idea behind his Pig Pen.we all try and use the same colour dirt so the vehicles all match.

Did anybody like my damage.As this is something that i would like to do more.

I would post more of my WIP shots but i cant get a website up and running due to my service provider cocking up.When this is sorted it was my plan to post WIP shots for comment.

I would also like a few beta testers to help trying out mods for me.As the more feedback i get means i can only get better.

Any takers.

In fact my last 2 mods are about ready to release but need testing.

[gautrek]

I have just had thought i think this is where we start asking for a dedicated MOD FORUM again.

So we can discuss mods and how to do them in peace.

Why not join the PPFDMF (PEOPLE'S POPULAR FRONT FOR A DEDICATED MOD FORUM)and we can all band together and try to storm BFC.

I am willing to handle the membership side of it.

So if we can all agree on a set membership fee i will be more than willing to have the money sent to me for safe keeping

[Lawyer]

First, I'm a big hi-res mod slut. I got that way in CMBO when the beautiful mods made it a whole new game visually. I love their work, I appreciate their effort, and I use their mods.

Second, I prefer the "dirty" look as long as it doesn't make the unit unattractive. By unattractive, I mean that I want to see the basic details of the unit and appreciate the unit itself more than the dirt.

Now I agree that covering everything in dust or mud would be entirely appropriate for the Eastern Front. But would it be visually pleasing for a game like CMBB? I don't want it go too far. After all, there are lots of things that are authentic to the Eastern Front that we don't see. Like desolate civilians, fields littered with mutiltated dead soldiers, killing fields, etc. Frankly, I prefer CMBB to NOT be realistic in certain ways, and that's the way BTS has gone.

So back to muddy vehicles, I'd like to get the flavor of it without being overwhelmed by it. After all, the whole look is already very BROWN. We need some detail and color relief to see the units and enjoy them.

Basically, I think Gordon and the other dirty modders are doing it just about right. Today, I installed a bunch of mods, including RKSoldat's truck and Mr. Noobie's tanks. These are excellent. I'd like to see more along these lines. Gordon't effort to standardize the dirt is also worthy.

Once again, I applaud these modders and hope they stick with it. I like their approach. A LOT.

[tracer]

guatrek,

I would be glad to beta test your mods,and could you test mine?? I welcome the feed back,good or bad. I have just started into modding, and thanks to feed back, from folks like bullethead, joshnik, and a lot more, I think I'm getting better at it. The PzVIE I modded looks a lot better then the PzIIIJ I did.

[gautrek]

Tracer drop me anemail (mines in my profile).

[Bullethead]

gautrek said:

Please bare in mind that a few of us modders are fairly new to this.

This is why it's somewhat difficult for us no-talent modsluts to give feedback beyond "hey that's cool!". We don't want to discourage the modders or seem ungrateful for what we realize is a lot of hard work done completely voluntarily, using programs that we're too cheap to buy .

My thinking is that all the photos or footage I have seen shows the vehicles either VERY dusty in the summer,s*** up to the eyeballs in the spring and autumn or frozen solid in the winter.

That's my impression also. It's like vehicles on the Eastern Front got dirtier than on the Western. Maybe because there wasn't near as dense a road net? I don't know, but they do look much dirtier on average in the photos.

Also these mods have been doing using Gordons standard dust and dirt BMPs.This is the idea behind his Pig Pen.we all try and use the same colour dirt so the vehicles all match.

Yeah, that's a great idea. I even like the colors chosen. My only suggestion is that most modders should use more of the mud, whatever colors get standardized.

Did anybody like my damage.As this is something that i would like to do more.

You mean the BA-6's radiator door hanging askew on a bent hinge? I LOVE that! That sort of wear-and-tear damage happens all the time, you picked a likely spot for it to happen, and you did a great job making it look real.

I hope you continue with stuff like that. Like toolboxes with broken latches so they're held shut with rope, empty racks for shovels that got forgotten at the last position, cracked windshields, broken headlights, bent brushguards, etc.

[Bullethead]

I wrote the below in an email to a modder who asked for some feedback on dirt application. These are just my own observations from having to clean a lot of dirty vehicles, military and fire, so your mileage may vary. But I figure it wouldn't hurt to toss this out for discussion so as to arrive at some concensus of how and where dust and mud accumulate on vehicles.

Such a concensus would go hand-in-hand with the "Pig Pen" standardized palette. Then we'd have standard dirt colors applied in a realistic manner. The only remaining question then would be how much to apply to a given unit, and that's a matter of taste and artistic license .

I think the most important thing about adding dirt is to keep in mind how it gets applied in real life. Dust settles, mud splatters. This difference results in the stuff accumulating in different places on the vehicle and also varying in thickness. So first you have to decide whether your tank is going to represent one in a dusty area, a muddy area, or a dusty area subject to scattered showers that leave a few puddles here and there but most of the ground returns to dust very quickly. Thus, for somebody to be able to give you meaningful feedback, you have to let him know what sort of look you're trying to achieve.

Dust settles thickest on horizontal surfaces but still clings a bit to vertical surfaces. It also builds up to its thickest depth in nooks and

corners where the wind can't blow it away. So it builds up along welds (kinda highlighting them), at joints between horizonal and vertical parts, around rivets, etc. High humidity or a rain a few days previously makes dust sticky so it

clings more to vertical surfaces and builds up thicker everywhere. Usually a layer of dust is translucent to a varying degree except in the corners where it becomes opaque.

The thing about dust is that it can go any distance from the source and doesn't follow a straight line to get there, so can reach every part of the vehicle.

Specific areas for dust accumulation: The top surfaces usually have the most due to being horizontal and because military vehicles move in units and eat each others' dust. The top is also the wettest if there's been dew the night before, which makes dust stick. Also, the rear hull areas attract a lot of dust due to the wind eddying around the rear of the vehicle, both the rear deck and rear vertical plates. This is helped by there usually wet spots on the rear from oil and fuel leaks, plus dew sloshing off the top and over the back when the vehicle 1st moves that day, all of which function as dust magnets. The tops of the fenders at both ends

of a tank also get thick dust because the moving tracks kinda shovel it up there. The rest of the fenders along the whole length get a lot, but not

quite as much, from the eddying over the top of the tracks. The running gear area under the fenders usually doesn't have as much dust on it because it's vertical, but constant exposure to the worse dust source does make some stick. Especially in areas where there is grease oozing out of bearings, plus in all the corners of the road wheels and any hull side rivets. So like a T34's solid road wheels would have dust build-up along the inner rim edges and around the central boss. The spoked M43 roadwheels would have dust along the edges of all the flanges as well.

Mud pretty much needs a straight line of sight from where it was on the ground to some part of a tank. Because it's sticky, it doesn't really

matter if the surface is horizontal or vertical, and it tends to build up in 3D lumps instead of a layer of uniform thickness. However, the wetter the mud is, the more it smears and drips once it hits the tank. Plus muddy water splashed up will leave thin coats of mud and help smear mud already in place. These processes try to spread and even the mud out over a wide area instead of it being big discrete lumps, although the resulting layer will still have a 3D bumpy surface.

Specific areas of mud accumulation: The whole running gear area gets plastered, especially the underside of the fenders and the lower hull side.

On the roadwheels, the mud gets thickest around the rim and fades toward the center due to the centrifuge effect, but a few clods will remain in the middle due to the low rotational speed there (same goes for the hubs of wheeled vehicles). Mud also builds up on top of the ends of the fenders from being slung there by the tracks, with a scattering of smaller blobs spread out over nearby areas of hull top and sides. This all would be for driving over mud only a few inches deep. If the mud was deep enough to

threaten bogging, everything below the fenders would be solid mud with no paint showing, with big clods of mud stuck everwhere else, even on top, due to spinning the tracks/wheels and throwing up rooster tails of mud.

In either case, mud presents a problem when it comes to wheels, because they don't turn in CM, only the outer surfaces move (tread or track). In real life, some of the holes in wheels like those on the T34 M43 would be blocked up by mud partially or completely. But because they don't turn when the vehicle moves in the game, it might look funny to draw that. OTOH, it looks funny NOT having that, so I guess there's no perfect approach.

If the area is mostly dusty but gets scattered showers, you'd have some mud and some dust. The ratio would depend on how recently it rained. If it rained recently, the mud wouldn't be thick so would spread everywhere around the running gear and rear hull areas in a thin, more or less even coat, and there wouldn't be very much dust because the rain would have washed it off. OTOH, if the rain was several days before, you'd have mostly a dusty tank although with less dust overall than if it hadn't rained in a while, because the dust would have less tendency to rise.

The mud on such a tank would be from hitting the occasional remaining puddle so you'd have recognizable individual splat and spray patterns instead of solid coats, mostly concentrated on the lower hull sides.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by MrNoobie:

yuck i think i'll stick to weathering the tanks...

Actually, that wouldn't look bad if you confined the mud to the low spots. And it would help the player to read the contours of the ground in the overhead views and higher oblique views.

Michael

[MrNoobie]

yes, but the thing is all the tiles look the same to me, i wouldnt know where to add the mud

[Michael Emrys]

They are coded for height, but I don't know what the code is. Somebody must have a list though, because modders have turned out several grass mods that incorporate color changes for height.

Michael

[gautrek]

Bullethead said

This is why it's somewhat difficult for us no-talent modsluts to give feedback beyond "hey that's cool!". We don't want to discourage the modders or seem ungrateful for what we realize is a lot of hard work done completely voluntarily, using programs that we're too cheap to buy

As i said before I WAS a notalent modslut until i picked up Paint Shop Pro 5 off the front of a PC Format mag about 6 weeks ago(NOTE FREE).So please dont think that i have some special talent.I just sat down and started messing about with it.My first attempt was to slightly damage the side skirts in the panzer IV from the demo.This kept me amused for about 4 nights finding out what works and what dosen't.

So give it a go you might be suprised what you can do.Just down load a demo of a paint package and have a play thats how i started.Also ask on this forum as lots of people will help you out.

Also any comments are needed even if you can't mod.You all know what looks right or wrong.

[MikeyD]

The problem with dirt-levels on mods is EVERYTHING is correct!

One vehicle may have been under a shed in the barracks that morning, another could've been running at high speed all day through deep mud. How dirty should a Stalingrad T34 be? Driven straight off the assembly line into... a rainstorm? a muddy road? a frozen wheatfield?

For the 'consumer' of mods it's all a matter of taste, for the 'producer' of mods it's a matter of consistency.

[ November 11, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]