Curious cover arcs?

[John O'Reilly]

I have but a modicum of experience with CMBB so I am just throwing out this observation from the first three PBEM games that I have started.

I was very keen to try out the new commands and in particular the CA command. I have noticed, in conditions where my tank is stationary, unbuttoned, in ambush position with a CA, that every single time an enemy tank hoves into view, it is the enemy tank that targets first. A bit strange no?

I have just reviewed a PBEM file where my vereran Tiger is fired on by a moving T34/85 that it was waiting to ambush. Luckily the Russian missed and my Tiger didn't with the return shot. I have equally noticed this while playing the Russians, driving around in Shermans.

Am I doing something wrong? If I continue to see CAs giving this effect I may stop using them. That first shot is critical,

John

[Michael Emrys]

Are you using Covered Arc (as you posted) or Armor Arc? If the former, your tank won't be looking for tanks but for soft targets. That would delay acquisition of a hard target, I would think.

Michael

[WWB]

Did you set the covered arc so that it begins out of LOS of the covering unit?

If not, the target acquisition thing could easily be explained by the fact that the enemy vehicle could see your vehicle before it entered the covered arc.

WWB

[zukkov]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Are you using Covered Arc (as you posted) or Armor Arc? If the former, your tank won't be looking for tanks but for soft targets. That would delay acquisition of a hard target, I would think.

Michael

is this true? do non armored ca's mean that your tank will not respond as quickly to armor as an armored ca? if so, that's a pretty important thing to remember i'd say! guess it's time to read the manual again! lol..

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by zukkov:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Are you using Covered Arc (as you posted) or Armor Arc? If the former, your tank won't be looking for tanks but for soft targets. That would delay acquisition of a hard target, I would think.

is this true? do non armored ca's mean that your tank will not respond as quickly to armor as an armored ca? if so, that's a pretty important thing to remember i'd say! guess it's time to read the manual again! lol..</font>

[yunfat]

All I can say is that my experience with any kind of covered arc (armor or otherwise) has been decidedly negative. I too have experienced the "O'Reilly effect" where enemy tanks entering my armor cover arc target first and get shots off first. This is despite the fact that my tank has cover (scattered trees), was hidng, and had an armor covered arc that included LOS to any possible sighting by the enemy tank.

As a corrolary, when my troops have a cover arc they often unhide themselves despite having no LOS to the enemy... you would think they would wait until they could see the enemy. An example of this is an enemy taking an approach up a steep incline to my dug in position. The cover arc covers the area, my men unhide, but the enemy troops are still out of sight from my men (due to the fact their approach is below the crest of a small ridge). Of course, when my men unhide, they get blown to smithereens by whatever is overwatching the enemy infantry advance, without ever inflicting the casualties one would expect from an ambush "type" of postition.

Its disheartening to say this, but I avoid all of the new commands except "move to contact". They just dont work as I expect them too, and cannot be trusted in battle.

[tabpub]

Originally posted by yunfat:

All I can say is that my experience with any kind of covered arc (armor or otherwise) has been decidedly negative. I too have experienced the "O'Reilly effect" where enemy tanks entering my armor cover arc target first and get shots off first. This is despite the fact that my tank has cover (scattered trees), was hidng, and had an armor covered arc that included LOS to any possible sighting by the enemy tank.

.

Tanks don't hide and Charlie don't surf....when tanks hide, they shut down everything, smoke cigs and look at girlie mags in the FC. Did this in CMBO and still do now.

[yunfat]

Originally posted by tabpub:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by yunfat:

All I can say is that my experience with any kind of covered arc (armor or otherwise) has been decidedly negative. I too have experienced the "O'Reilly effect" where enemy tanks entering my armor cover arc target first and get shots off first. This is despite the fact that my tank has cover (scattered trees), was hidng, and had an armor covered arc that included LOS to any possible sighting by the enemy tank.

.

Tanks don't hide and Charlie don't surf....when tanks hide, they shut down everything, smoke cigs and look at girlie mags in the FC. Did this in CMBO and still do now.</font>

[Tankist]

Covered arcs are broken; I mentioned that in another thread.

Right now, a unit even unhides if the only(!) enemy in its covered arc is a 'dead soldier' marker out-of-los!

This bug makes the covered arcs nearly useless for ambushes.

And in combination with the 'TacAI to hesitant to fire' problem, one should avoid covered arcs until they are fixed.

What I hope they will do

Tankist

[ November 10, 2002, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Tankist ]

[John O'Reilly]

It was an armoured CA and frankly I have seen this in several different situations. I will actually see the enemy tank appear and watch it stop and start to target my own. Now, since I have no other unit in the area that can spot the enemy tank, surely this means that it is my own tank with CA that has spotted him? If so, then why does he take so long to target?

John

[arkai88]

I have seen the same thing - however, my worst CA mishap took place when an enemy tank moving fast ran through my covered arc before my tank could shoot, then proceeded to stop just outside of my CA and fire 6 or 7 shots at my t34 till he finally wasted it.

[Thin Red Line]

John,

O'Reilly effect.

Congratulations, this discovery is now named after you. This is the road to fame...

Just to add something to the discussion,

the silhouette of the Tiger is 120, T34-85 is 103 only.

Is the silhouette taken in account for spotting/targeting delay ?

[GJK]

Shouldn't CA's be "loosely" defined? I too have had units zip through my CA only to not be fired upon because they now rest just outside the arc.

Seems to me, that a covered arc would be loosely defined to the given area, but should a unit (especially one that poses a definite threat to you) should appear just outside of the arc (or in their LOS actually) they should engage that target. Now, if another threat appears that is inside their CA, they should then redirect their fire to that unit.

It's almost funny watching units with CA's just sit there and not engage because potential targets are just outside the arc (and usually engaging you).

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by GJK:

It's almost funny watching units with CA's just sit there and not engage because potential targets are just outside the arc (and usually engaging you).

If the potential target is a threat, the unit should engage it too, cover arc or not. At least this is how it is supposed to work, and in my limited CMBB experience, it works.

[MikeyD]

I'm wondering, which type of tanks were you deploying? Even with cover arc a 2-man-turret T34 with no cupola will still be less likely to spot a German tank with dedicated commander and vision cupola.

I must admit cover arcs are tricky, but if they operated TOO perfectly it would feel a bit gamey over-using them (like 'ambush' in CMBO).

[Granger]

Somewhere in the manual it says that units will wait for a good shot even if a unit is well into the cover arc.

[Tankist]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I'm wondering, which type of tanks were you deploying? Even with cover arc a 2-man-turret T34 with no cupola will still be less likely to spot a German tank with dedicated commander and vision cupola.

I must admit cover arcs are tricky, but if they operated TOO perfectly it would feel a bit gamey over-using them (like 'ambush' in CMBO).

I don't think that cover arcs are prone to being gamey; the only use they have is to restrict fire and nothing else.

For ambushes they are not very usable; as soon as the ambushed unit moves 2 meters out of the arc, your unit stops to fire.

That reason, together with the 'unhide in every situation' problem, makes some people wish for a resurface of the dedicated Ambush order in a future patch.

One can dream

Tankist

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Tankist:

...as soon as the ambushed unit moves 2 meters out of the arc, your unit stops to fire. [sic. I think he means "ceases fire.]

Several people have posted this complaint and I have wondered each time what was the reason for not setting a wider arc so that the enemy would not run out of it in one turn.

Michael

[Fetchez la Vache]

Michael, I guess one example might be when using a Russian SMG squad in an ambush. Here I would set a CA range of around 40m so I hit the enemy with my max firepower of 400-ish (since I have no rifles or DPs). However, if the enemy run directly away from my SMG squad then I might be scuppered even though I'd obviously like to keep firing.

Saying that, I usually stick in an infantry CA of 150deg to prevent the enemy running 'out of the side' of the arc. Try to keep things a bit narrower for AFV's since here I might have to wait for my turret to swing through 70deg or so in order to engage, not fun in a Tiger.

Despite a couple of glitches, I still personally prefer arcs over the old 'ambush' command any day! Although tbh I'd be happier if I could choose between the 2 methods in CMBB. Horses for courses and all that...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Fetchez la Vache:

Michael, I guess one example might be when using a Russian SMG squad in an ambush. Here I would set a CA range of around 40m so I hit the enemy with my max firepower of 400-ish (since I have no rifles or DPs). However, if the enemy run directly away from my SMG squad then I might be scuppered even though I'd obviously like to keep firing.

Yes, I see what you are saying. Then I guess the best solution would be that once an enemy unit has triggered fire by entering a CA, the firing unit can stay on it even if it leaves the CA. But I can see potential problems with that too. Suppose the enemy unit opens range to the point where the friendly fire is no longer effective? Would you want your unit to keep banging away at it? The problem of another eligible enemy unit moving into closer range or having greater exposure, on the other hand, I would think easier to solve.

Saying that, I usually stick in an infantry CA of 150deg to prevent the enemy running 'out of the side' of the arc. Try to keep things a bit narrower for AFV's since here I might have to wait for my turret to swing through 70deg or so in order to engage, not fun in a Tiger.

I should imagine that with guns and AFVs you can well afford to use a narrower arc, since your expected engagement range is farther away, and thus the transit time to cross a given arc is longer. An enemy AFV is likely to come to a halt to return fire if fired at anyway, isn't it?

Despite a couple of glitches, I still personally prefer arcs over the old 'ambush' command any day! Although tbh I'd be happier if I could choose between the 2 methods in CMBB. Horses for courses and all that...

You may well be right. I wonder if BTS may have been a bit premature in removing Ambush from the repertoire of options.

Michael

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Tankist:

For ambushes they are not very usable; as soon as the ambushed unit moves 2 meters out of the arc, your unit stops to fire.

I don't see any problem here ; next turn you cancel or enlarge the arc. Do you refer to a case a unit would enter and exit the CA during the same turn ? Pretty rare occurence IMHO...

[PeterX]

Originally posted by Tankist:

For ambushes they are not very usable; as soon as the ambushed unit moves 2 meters out of the arc, your unit stops to fire

I just played a PBEM movie five minutes ago and my AT gun followed a PZIII ~20 meters out of its armomred covered arc. Got off three shots, as a matter of fact, as the tank was travelling east-west across its FOV.

[Tankist]

...Originally posted by Michael emrys:

You may well be right. I wonder if BTS may have been a bit premature in removing Ambush from the repertoire of options.

Michael

Exactly; the Ambush order, as a triggered event, is a very different concept, than the covered arcs, that are mainly used to restrict fire or to keep the turret pointed into a certain direction.

I like the covered arcs (once the hide/unhide bugs are fixed), but the addition of the dedicated ambush order would give us more variety in tactics IMHO.

Tankist

[Earl]

In a PBEM game I'm currently in, I witnessed the "O'Reilly effect" with a ATG. With 5 or so PzIII at less than 200 m, my opponents ATG that was hidden in a wheatfield with a armor CA (per his email) was spotted by my tanks and KO without ever getting a shot off. From examining my playback, it appears that the ATG was first targeted by a halftrack another 200 or so back before he even unhid. Seems kinda strange.

[Thin Red Line]

Earl,

Was the ATG actually 'Hiding' ? Because if hiding it needs a set-up delay to react, and a wheat field provides few concealment, especially in Auutumn/winter.