45mm Russian guns, you gotta be kidding!

[CombatGeneral]

Ok, for all those who dont know me, Im a trouble maker, thats right a trouble maker. I say things to hijack threads and to piss certain people off. Oh well, sorry about that. But tough cookies.

Now, to the point. Playing the tank battle in the demo, you know what im talking about. I place all my 45mm guns in the exact spots they should be placed in (yeah, thats right) and when the panzers are infront of my guns, meaning, my guns have flank shots, I open fire. All I get is rear penetration, I get like five penetrations before the crews decide to bail out. But, I only take out a few tanks before my pathetic russion whimpy crews are getting bullts stuck in their guts. You would think with several wholes in your tank you would be hurting. Your toughts would be nice.

[ARRPEEGEE]

The tank crews don't want to leave their Mk.41 air-conditioners..It's a pretty hot day for a battle.

I dunno what to tell you. I've had 'em bail after a few hits, but..they were close in. a 45mm just dosen't have the same effect ohhhh say an 85mm will..

[JonS]

Originally posted by CombatGeneral:

... Your toughts would be nice.

I think you're a whiner, who has all the tactical acumen of ... a leperous cat.

[Grisha]

What was your range? I set mine to under 400m, and got 11 kills and 1 immobilized to 10 AT guns versus the AI. Nothing brewed, which was disappointing.

[Pvt. Ryan]

In my last game the German tanks didn't make it past my first line of defense. I lost 4 AT guns for 15 KO'd German tanks.

[TSword]

Combat General,

That's the way it is to be !! The 45 mm in 1943 was a puny gun !

I also played Zitadelle from the Russian side, i lost 5 guns but toasted all tanks. I did set up three lines of defense, never had to use my last battery.

My first battery was posted in the first woods on each side -> 3 tanks out.

Second battery was posted in the woods before the steep depression in conjunction with the KV-1 section on other side of depression -> All other tanks out by three guns and the KV-1 -> Total victory with 92 points

Combined arms is the keyword !

Greets

Daniel

[gatpr]

Try the Russian idea, well originally German, set up your 45s in groups that all target the same tank, and watch these facsisti burn. The German term was pakfront, the Russian was crispy nemestii.

[mfred]

Checking my number

[Hoopenfaust2]

Hey General

How about you be quiet, while we figure out this food and air deal.

[Sgt. Beavis]

I think this new "feature" is a bit wrong. It doesn't matter how big the penetrating round is, in terms of morale.

If the crew sees a 14.5 mm hole in the turret or a 45 mm one, it shouldn't matter. They're not gonna think about it. "Well, it's a small round, so it's not so dangerous. it just penetrated my tank's armor, and the next rounds will be on target since the last one hit, but we'll just hang out in here like the brave soldiers we are."

Uh hell no. That just did not happen.

Maybe 1 time out of a thousand, because the crew was fanatical, they were desperate, whatever. But the other 999 times, they bailed out as fast as they could.

[ARRPEEGEE]

Uh hell no. That just did not happen.

Maybe 1 time out of a thousand, because the crew was fanatical, they were desperate, whatever. But the other 999 times, they bailed out as fast as they could.

If it's a Sherman, yeah!

One thing to remember: It's always safer inside the tank than outside the tank. Overpressure does a good job of telling tankers when to get out (and helping them along).

You can't assume that WWII tankers were experts at damage and threat assessment. WWII tanks were small, noisy metal cubbyholes. Usually the decision to bail was made when a MAJOR operating component was rendered inop, such as the engine or main gun.

But-also remember the death clock, that's new in BB...Your teams won't stop firing on the KO shot anymore...Maybe that's it?

[ September 03, 2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: mch ]

[Zach]

Originally posted by CombatGeneral:

...and when the panzers are infront of my guns, meaning, my guns have flank shots, I open fire. All I get is rear penetration, I get like five penetrations before the crews decide to bail out.

A) Emphesis added. Someone call the FBI, it seems that the Ruskies developed the magic bullet long before it hit Pres. Kennedy and the guv'nar.

Death timer perhaps? The first shot did the job, but your crews were doing their job and making sure it was done for before moving on to the next tank?

[Diceman]

There's a lot of confusion when a tank gets KO'd. People are wounded. There's dust and noise. One guy is screaming because his arm has been shattered, another guy was knocked out for a few seconds and doesn't know which way is up. Someone else is trying to figure out who's O.K. and who isn't...or somefink like that. I think the death clock adds realism to the game.

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Sgt. Beavis:

I think this new "feature" is a bit wrong. It doesn't matter how big the penetrating round is, in terms of morale.

If the crew sees a 14.5 mm hole in the turret or a 45 mm one, it shouldn't matter. They're not gonna think about it. "Well, it's a small round, so it's not so dangerous. it just penetrated my tank's armor, and the next rounds will be on target since the last one hit, but we'll just hang out in here like the brave soldiers we are."

Uh hell no. That just did not happen.

Maybe 1 time out of a thousand, because the crew was fanatical, they were desperate, whatever. But the other 999 times, they bailed out as fast as they could.

‘ Immediately thereafter a 52 ton tank that hadn’t previously been noticed fired at Lt Hein’s Panzer. In the exchange of fire, Lt Hein’s Panzer was hit on the turret cupola but wasn’t penetrated. Lt Hein also hit the turret of the 52-ton tank several times. It was later determined that these were clean penetrations. The crew abandoning the enemy tank were killed.’ (1996 Jentz p229).

The Russian tank crew took several 7,5cm holes to the turret before making the decision to bail.

‘One of the two returning Tauchpanzer had a fist sized hole in the upper hull caused by an anti tank gun shell that was expediently sealed with wood splints to prevent water entering.’(1996 Jentz P202).

‘7. The fantastic combat morale of the Russian tank crews has led to having to destroy stationary tanks that had already been hit five or six times by sending in teams on foot to blow up the tanks with explosives. The Russian tank crews remained fighting in their tanks so long as their weapons could be fired.’ Experience Report by Pz-Regt 33, 31 July 42 (1996 Jentz pg243).

‘In the thick of it, my driver says, “The motor is no longer running properly, breaks not acting, transmission working only with great difficulty.”…… Just then we are hit and the radio set is smashed to bits…… From every side, the superior forces of the enemy shoot at us. “Retire.” There is a crash behind us. The motor and the Fuel tank are in the rear. The Panzer must be on fire. I turn around and look through the vision slit. It’s not burning………. We examined damage to the Panzer. My men extricate an APHE shell from the right wall by the fuel tank….. The fuel had run out without igniting.’ (1998 Jentz Pg111-112) From the Diary of LT Schrom detailing the failed assault on Toburk.

‘ENCOURAGE (SGT K.) recived a 47mm shell under the running board as it was withdrawing from the action; this severely wounded Trooper S., who died shortly after.’ (1998 Jentz pg94)

[ September 03, 2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[JonS]

Bas,

you have 5 examples there. That is quite impressive. However, at a ratio of 999:1 all that means is that you have listed all the cases of a-tank-being-penetrated-and-the-crew-not-bailing that happened during WWII. It must be, otherwise Combat General would be wrong.

Or sumfink.

Regards

JonS

[ September 03, 2002, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Bastables]

Originally posted by JonS:

Bas,

you have 5 examples there. That is quite impressive. However, at a ratio of 999:1 all that means is that you have listed all the cases of a tank being penetrated and the crew not bailing that happened duirng WWII. It must be, otherwise CombatGenital would be wrong.

Or sumfink.

Regards

JonS

And that is why his argument is so cunning, almost a Popperism. But I shan't let the lack of black swans dissuade me.

[Michael Dorosh]

I can cite a Canadian example also; the Churchill tank crews at Dieppe remained in their tanks until all their ammunition was exhausted, despite being immobilized and hit by enemy fire multiple times. In the case of the Churchills, though, the largest enemy guns - 5.0 cm - were unable to achieve any penetrations. Nonetheless, multiple hits as well as intense mortar fire was brought to bear.

[Guest Mike]

IMO tank crews often stayed onboard if they thought they were relatively invulnerable.

Hnce the performance of various KV-1's and -2's in 1941!!

I reckon that a penetration might not actually be noticed by the crew - it might stop in a fuel tank, or the engine crank case, or stored ammo or the crew's gear, especially if it was a small round with low energy remaining after it got through all that armour.

Who's gonna go look for 14.5mm holes in the middle of battle?? "Clang" - hey - we got hit!! anyone hurt?? no?? well keep bloody shooting then........

[Sgt. Beavis]

Originally posted by Bastables:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sgt. Beavis:

I think this new "feature" is a bit wrong. It doesn't matter how big the penetrating round is, in terms of morale.

If the crew sees a 14.5 mm hole in the turret or a 45 mm one, it shouldn't matter. They're not gonna think about it. "Well, it's a small round, so it's not so dangerous. it just penetrated my tank's armor, and the next rounds will be on target since the last one hit, but we'll just hang out in here like the brave soldiers we are."

Uh hell no. That just did not happen.

Maybe 1 time out of a thousand, because the crew was fanatical, they were desperate, whatever. But the other 999 times, they bailed out as fast as they could.

‘ Immediately thereafter a 52 ton tank that hadn’t previously been noticed fired at Lt Hein’s Panzer. In the exchange of fire, Lt Hein’s Panzer was hit on the turret cupola but wasn’t penetrated. Lt Hein also hit the turret of the 52-ton tank several times. It was later determined that these were clean penetrations. The crew abandoning the enemy tank were killed.’ (1996 Jentz p229).

The Russian tank crew took several 7,5cm holes to the turret before making the decision to bail.

‘One of the two returning Tauchpanzer had a fist sized hole in the upper hull caused by an anti tank gun shell that was expediently sealed with wood splints to prevent water entering.’(1996 Jentz P202).

‘7. The fantastic combat morale of the Russian tank crews has led to having to destroy stationary tanks that had already been hit five or six times by sending in teams on foot to blow up the tanks with explosives. The Russian tank crews remained fighting in their tanks so long as their weapons could be fired.’ Experience Report by Pz-Regt 33, 31 July 42 (1996 Jentz pg243).

‘In the thick of it, my driver says, “The motor is no longer running properly, breaks not acting, transmission working only with great difficulty.”…… Just then we are hit and the radio set is smashed to bits…… From every side, the superior forces of the enemy shoot at us. “Retire.” There is a crash behind us. The motor and the Fuel tank are in the rear. The Panzer must be on fire. I turn around and look through the vision slit. It’s not burning………. We examined damage to the Panzer. My men extricate an APHE shell from the right wall by the fuel tank….. The fuel had run out without igniting.’ (1998 Jentz Pg111-112) From the Diary of LT Schrom detailing the failed assault on Toburk.

‘ENCOURAGE (SGT K.) recived a 47mm shell under the running board as it was withdrawing from the action; this severely wounded Trooper S., who died shortly after.’ (1998 Jentz pg94)</font>

[Sgt. Beavis]

Originally posted by Mike:

IMO tank crews often stayed onboard if they thought they were relatively invulnerable.

Hnce the performance of various KV-1's and -2's in 1941!!

I reckon that a penetration might not actually be noticed by the crew - it might stop in a fuel tank, or the engine crank case, or stored ammo or the crew's gear, especially if it was a small round with low energy remaining after it got through all that armour.

Who's gonna go look for 14.5mm holes in the middle of battle?? "Clang" - hey - we got hit!! anyone hurt?? no?? well keep bloody shooting then........

If they thought they were invulnerable, sure. When a round comes crashing through, it is apparent that you are not invulnerable to the unseen enemy firing at you. That will usually scare the crap out of normal people under intense stress to begin with, and they wouldn't hang around to see what happened next.

Now I agree that some hull penetrations from the rear with, say, ATR rounds might barely hit the engine and not do anything too horrible to the tank or crew. A front turret penetration with a 37, 45, 47, or 50 mm round would be quite another matter, I believe. You'd be aware of it, and you'd be aware of the fact a weapon is capable of going through your armor. Said weapon is also going to continue firing at you until the tank blows up since they are also scared normal people not wanting to die.

I don't think many crews remained with their vehicles after a round came through the armor.

[TSword]

Conscript or Green may bail out, but surely not a veteran crew !

During reading of Nipe's Last Victory, the german tanks were hit quite frequently insuring somebody inside and never did the crew bail unless tank was burning and had to be abandoned, instead they drived into safety first.

The same for Assault Guns (Forget the name of author): Many times the StuG's were penetrated by 14.5 mm ATR's, the crews then tried first to drive into safety but surely didn't bail (Meaning to be slaughtered immediately..)

In Tigers for instance it was barely noticeable if one was hit by ATR's or 45 mm guns as stated by several tancrews, because noise of tank and the battlefield.

Nothing has therefore to be changed IMO (I would rather go crazy...)

Greets

Daniel

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Sgt. Beavis:

[Definitely interesting, but far from what normally happened. It goes against human nature to remain in a vehicle that has been hit and penetrated. Sure, some crews were fanatical, angry and wanting to take a few enemies with them, or what have you.

But most normal crews would bail. I don't have a number or percentage to give you, but I'm pretty confident that you'd agree when I say it was the vast majority. Most certainly did not stay with the vehicle after getting penetrated, no matter how big or small the round was.

[/QB]

Well actually I don't agree, at all. I've got well-trained British tankers waiting for the order to withdraw in spite of turret/hull penetrations and not receiving the order because the Troop commander’s tank is unseen and on fire. Finally receiving the order from the Sqn commander.

I’ve got anecdotes of PIVs in Normandy receiving a turret hit that penetrated blowing open the side hatches, which the crew glibly closed and then drove off. I have photos of a PIV with a hull penetration above the drives vision block with a head bandaged driver smiling at the camera. Anecdotes of IS-2 receiving a turret hit killing the loader and forcing the wounded Commander and gunner to bail while the driver calmly reverses him self out of the Tigers field of fire.

You have an unshakable belief that marginal penetrations are that panic inducing to trained Tank crewmen, plus some vaguely referred to percentages that quite likely don’t exist. With this well researched argument you expect BTS to agree to your point of view. Good luck mate.

[Barleyman]

One point not pointed out - I'd feel a LOT safer sitting inside the fragile eggshell from the 7.92mm et al bullets that someone would be itching to put into my head as soon as I open the cupola. Especially after what we did to the last half-dozen squads we came across. If the engine goes bust, now that's different.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Bastables:

[snips]

You have an unshakable belief that marginal penetrations are that panic inducing to trained Tank crewmen, plus some vaguely referred to percentages that quite likely don’t exist. With this well researched argument you expect BTS to agree to your point of view. Good luck mate.

Agreed. And let me add to the list of examples the case of a Matila I crew in the Arras counter-attack who, finding that it was disconcerting to have daylight showing through the armour where an AP round had penetrated their tank, bunged up the hole with a pair of socks and carried on.

All the best,

John.

[dizee]

is this realy a whining thread about the deathclock?

lol its one of the fines new features in armored combat in cmbb, and its perfectly realistic.

'....flames, wrecks and russian like figuers everywhere...hit after hit.suddenly we recived a strong blow somwhere.should we change the course?how should i find the headquaters in this mess?....no orientation possible....we are radioing for help.we need renforcement and firesupport..none noticed that we got no answer.the antena must have been shot away long ago...suddenly the paniced order:"t34 at 2.00 o`clock !! - antitank round fire at will!!" - "turret is blocked", says the gunner.now its getting serious."driver, aim with the vehicle, turn right"...all of a sudden a big blow, then silence.motor is stopped.restart!motor runs again.im asking:"what should i do? - the radio operator screams: "the gunner is dead, the intercom is gone!".im screaming: "ask the loader, what should i do?". answer: "the commander is dead - gunner, now its up to you"...i see russians assaulting the tank, and suddenly i see the t34 at around 100m...im faster..we are driving back to our own lines now...the radio operator cares for our wounded loader....later on someone counts the hits in our tank.my glassblock goes from hand to hand.17 hits from infantry projectiles and 3 hits from antitank rounds...'

(panzerkampf im bild page 60-61) report from rolf erhard, driver in 7./pz. rgt. "lsah"