Michael Dorosh Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Ok, I've been itching to do this for a year now. I set up a scenario with a single German HMG - in a V shaped trench, V pointed to the enemy. Crack crew, maximum ammo, padlocked the gun in the notch of the V and put a large flag behind him. Started a regular Soviet infantry company 150 metres away, with a 3-tile wire obstacle in front of the trench about 60 metres. For anyone interested in how MGs work now - and Extreme Fog of War - and trenches, for that matter - here's what happened. The enemy was spotted easily (though not identified), and the MG did change targets quite frequently. The enemy sent squads out on both flanks towards my gun. The trench provided perfect cover; not a man was hit for the first 2 turns. One enemy squad 9 strong made it to the end of one of the trenches, then jumped in and attempted to advance along the trench - smart, if my MG wasn't in the notch - the gun poured perfect enfilade fire into the squad, which broke and was killed before it could escape the trench. Eventually the enemy closed to grenade range, about turn 3. The Extreme Fog of War meant that once the MG crew panicked, some of the enemy troops were invisible. I had the MG selected, and its target line was pointing to a platoon HQ (the label clearly said Platoon HQ 10 m) but the unit itself was invisible. A few seconds later, I was down to one man, who surrendered. Lots of labels on infantry units, but the units themselves couldn't be seen. End result - 31 enemy casualties of a 124 man force - so 25% of his force were cut down by a lone machinegun. Seems about right! A second run through saw the MG jam, but 32 casualties inflicted again. The AI does seem to like piling into the barbed wire, though flanking squads ensured my MG could not fire across the entire company. My third run through was more successful - 102 casualties caused, and 14 taken prisoner. 8 Russians OK. No German casualties at all. I'd say we have a winner on our hands. What I like best was the variables - that was what made Squad Leader a nail biter; sometimes you roll 2s and sometimes you roll 12s. My MG rolled 12s in the second run through and spent much of the "game" jammed. The AI in the last one consistently send troops around to the flanks, but there was no cover for them. The MG also concentrated on these immediate threats. I did not use the covered arc command - no commands at all, just kept hitting GO. When the flanking squads were suppressed or killed, the gunner went back to raking the poor saps caught in the wire. Properly sited, two or three MGs will finally make all the difference in the world in a defensive set up. [ September 26, 2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwilli001 Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 I love this friggin game! My favorite part next to the new machine guns is having a tank column driving down a road with turrets at different angles covering flanks and rear. This just looks so cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Good post Michael, thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowarisch Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 I did something similar 2 days ago, but I want to test different mg types before posting results. I´m especially fond of heavy mg´s so the DShK 12.7 mm will be my favorite test canditate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Very intructive. Will do wonder with interlocking LOFs. BUMP with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Michael, Have you run any tests yet to see whether MGs can now fire on a given axis or TRP when the area is in smoke? This was something which really galled me with CMBO and which I fervently hope has been addressed in CMBB. Would check myself, but haven't yet conjured up the funds for a new CMBB capable Mac computer, hence haven't ordered CMBB yet. Thanks for the, er, bloody data! Regards, John Kettler [ September 27, 2002, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Just something I noticed and not quite as scientifically laid out as Dorosh's: That despite the awfully high ROF of the MG42 I find it after numerous QBs/Tests more reliable than the older MG34 which some guys here prefer. With regular crews the HMG42 did jam on occasion. With HMG34s however it was a different story. On too many occasions did I find my precious firepowr unavailable due to frequent jams. My worst showing for a HMG42 on a 20 variable turn game had it jam once for 2 turns. The worst showing for the HMG34 on a similar 20 variable turn game for me had it jam, not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES. To top it off, on the second one it was jammed for an awful 3 turns. Now, I now that's gotta be an extreme case but it casts a different light for me with infantry heavy early war scenarios with the prevalence of MG34s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shosties Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Interesting test there, Michael. A general question regarding setting cover arcs for mulitple HMGs on the defense: does it make sense for your flank HMGs to sweep the opposite side? i.e. Right HMG covers the left, left HMG covers the right, center HMG overlaps both arcs in the center. I get the general impression this works somewhat better than all of them simply shooting ahead (the view from the recieving end in Yelnia Stare). Anybody got a link to a page dicussing sophisticated sustained-fire MG tactics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftwing66 Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Bump! I would really love to read something about good machine gun placement as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 27, 2002 Author Share Posted September 27, 2002 Hi guys - thanks for the responses. As someone who railed against boring test posts, I think I will bow out now! I was really curious how MGs were "fixed" in CMBB and thought it would be of interest to others - especially those who don't have the game yet. I kind of don't want to explore it any more, kind of takes away the fun. I prefer only having a general idea of what is and isn't possible rather than a mathematical understanding of all the game features - it's more fun for me that way. Although, I do wonder where JasonC is in all of this - would be genuinely interested to see him analyze MG performance in CMBB vis a vis CMBO - I don't have the strength, patience or interest to do so myself, though I was tempted to set up a German MG and have at a Polish company in the editor. For my purposes, I think that MGs are sufficiently deadly now and I am content to leave it at that - though I will read with interest if anyone else wants to go further with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 27, 2002 Author Share Posted September 27, 2002 Warmaker - it seems to me the MG34 was very closely machined, and had a lower tolerance for dirt and grit. The MG42 had a built in "slop" to the parts - so the jamming frequency of the 34 is a cool feature that mirrors real life, as far as I know! Oh yeah - my MG42 dudes tried to get up when panicked and run with the tripod at one point !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 27, 2002 Author Share Posted September 27, 2002 Originally posted by John Kettler: Michael, Have you run any tests yet to see whether MGs can now fire on a given axis or TRP when the area is in smoke? This was something which really galled me with CMBO and which I fervently hope has been addressed in CMBB. Would check myself, but haven't yet conjured up the funds for a new CMBB capable Mac computer, hence haven't ordered CMBB yet. Thanks for the, er, bloody data! Regards, John KettlerFiring on fixed lines - - that would be something worth checking out. Hey, don't tell me you didn't preorder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 "I do wonder where JasonC is in all of this." Very busy recently with other things, and waiting for my copy of CMBB to arrive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 27, 2002 Author Share Posted September 27, 2002 Originally posted by JasonC: "I do wonder where JasonC is in all of this." Very busy recently with other things, and waiting for my copy of CMBB to arrive...Does she have a sister? Who lives in Canada? That likes short men? Looking forward to your comments re: CMBB in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 27, 2002 Author Share Posted September 27, 2002 Hmmm...I set up an Elite German MG42 in a foxhole, same terrain, in CMBO with a Polish regular company attacking the flag. It lasted 45 seconds - the riflemen picked off 3 German machinegunners right away, didn't suffer a single casualty, and one squad rushed the MG, taking the other 3 prisoner. A second run through saw one gunner picked off in the opening seconds...then the MG concentrated fire on a stationary squad 85 metres to its front, while a whole platoon ran straight at it from the left. Even when the platoon started chucking grenades from 18 metres away, the MG concentrated on its target 85 metres to the front. At the start of the second turn - without me giving any orders, just hitting GO - the MG still fired to its front 85 metres, while the Poles 18 metres away threw grenades - a few seconds later the MG surrendered. They inflicted 2 casualties in total. I'd say there is a big difference, though the trench may be a bit of a wildcard, here. EDIT - tried a couple of run throughs in CMBB with just a foxhole - wow, what a difference a trench makes. Nonetheless, during the second run through the German MG lasted into turn 3, and hit 49 men before giving up. I'd say splitting up and flanking the gun is the best bet for trying to take out an MG - and of course, flank protection for your guns when on the defence is a must. [ September 27, 2002, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowarisch Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 I completed my test on Russian heavy mg´s. Setting up a clear strech of open ground with a German regular company 350 meters away from the trench in which 2 Russian 12.7 mm Mg´s lie. I did 3 test runs, with maximum ammo for the mgs. All 3 runs roughly brought the same results, around round 8 the mgs always run out of ammo after which the Germans take the trench, but with losses of minimum 40% and maximum around 58 % of their total manpower. All in all one should stick to the Maxim mg which is usually cheaper and brings the same performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreck Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Trenches are the best cover in the game - 9% exposure. If you want to do a test to compare fairly to CMBO, then using a stone building is probably best. Either that, or foxholes in woods. Both are good cover, but not as good as trenches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidewinder Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Damn! i really should order the game....every post makes me want it more. Maybe i'll find out where michael dorosh is in calgary and peer through his window just to catch a glimpse..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Dorosh said: Hmmm...I set up an Elite German MG42 in a foxhole, same terrain, in CMBO with a Polish regular company attacking the flag. It lasted 45 seconds - the riflemen picked off 3 German machinegunners right away, didn't suffer a single casualty, and one squad rushed the MG, taking the other 3 prisoner. Heh heh heh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted September 27, 2002 Author Share Posted September 27, 2002 Originally posted by Sidewinder: Damn! i really should order the game....every post makes me want it more. Maybe i'll find out where michael dorosh is in calgary and peer through his window just to catch a glimpse..... Sure, Spidermn....I'm on the second floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacheldraht Posted September 28, 2002 Share Posted September 28, 2002 A non-scientific anecdote: I was playing as the Germans in a big assault on a large city. Things were moving along nicely until a platoon of German regular troops, in contact with their HQ, tried to cross a street, using either run or advance, I don't recall. A Soviet MG in a building way down the lane suddenly opened up, and most or all of the platoon panicked or broke and ran back to the buildings they started from. (Admittedly, it wasn't a genius move to send them all across the street at once, but I thought I was just mopping up, and I did have bases of fire set up to cover them, just not pointing at that MG, it turns out. Oh well.) Annoying from my end to see things grind to halt like that on one side of my advance, but I welcome the realism. Who wouldn't freak out when caught in the middle of a street being raked by machine gun fire? Urban fighting's going to be nastier than ever in CMBB, it seems, and rightly so. Time to call in the flamethrower tanks [ September 27, 2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts