German-Soviet Strengths and Weaknesses

[Phantom Captain]

Just looking at one of my save games in Stalingrad. One of my company HQ's has two PPSh's. My pioneers aren't armed with them either. In the pioneer platoon (six squads of 6 men each) there are only 2 PPSh's amongst them. No worries though, German pioneers I have found to be extremely effective in city fighting when used correctly! Whoever said the Germans have a rough time in city fighting hasn't used pioneers yet, I would imagine.

[Nippy]

What do the Soviets do better than the Axis? Well:

Assault Guns - The Soviets get the SU-122/152 and the ISU-122/152 which are great for rooting out intrenched infanty or getting the drop on AT guns. The Germans get the choice of the very rair and over priced Brumbar or the paper thin armored and open topped Hummel. (Stumtigers don't even count )

ATR rifles - No, a single ATR team will not stop a Pz-IV. However 2 ATR teams backed up by a DP LMG who are supporting well placed AT guns can make any battle field a nightmare for German armor.

I love splitting the fire of German tanks with ATRs and AT guns. If he turns to face the AT gun, he exposes his side armor to the ATRs. If he faces the ATRs the AT gun will eat him alive.

"Holy Combined Arms Bat Man!"

Flame throwers - The Soviet man portable type has the longest range in the game (45m) with the Germans at a far second (32m) and the Finns dead last (24m). As for tanks, well, you haven't seen true horror till you've had a Tugston and Cannister packing OT-34 rampaging in your lines.

German Flame thrower tanks lack any type of main gun, which means a T-70 could knock them out. The Germans do get FT HTs, but remember that little chat we had about AT rifles?

Tungston Ammo - By Mid to late 1943 addiquate numbers of this Ammo type start to show up in the Soviet Tank Ammo inventory. Heck, a T-70 packing 45mm Tungston Ammo can penatrate the Side Armor of a Panther at 500m or less.

Lend Lease Tanks - Valentine with the 57mm/L50 and the Sherman 76mm help fill the 43 to 44 tank gap until the T-34/85 gets into service and can give the Germans a run for their money.

M17 - Fantastic rout wagon. Nuff said.

Artillary on the offensive - A sort of catch 22 here. Calling Arty missions on the fly with Soviet troops is like trying to drag race with Model-T Ford. However, Soviet Arty is cheaper, packs more ammo, and is great from pre-attack bombardments and massive smoke Missions.

HMGs - A bit behind but just about equal to the Germans when you think about it. Sure the Maxim can't compare to the MG34/42, but the Long range DSHK 12.7mm can really reach out and touch some one on flatter maps.

My only Question is, why Can German HMGs like the MG42 be loaded on tanks, but the Soviet Maxim can't?

[Redwolf]

Speaking of OT-34, is anybody else feeling that the rate of fire is maybe a bit out of control?

[Hensworth]

Bottom line is still the same old song for me : numbers against quality.

The T-34 hasn't been that bad a tank for me so far. Sure, they don't survive the battle in great numbers, but they're very fast for such big beasts, they have versatile ammo (canister, good HE) and they can take a fair bit of punishment.

The 85 ranks high among my all-time favorite tanks.

[PeterX]

My only Question is, why Can German HMGs like the MG42 be loaded on tanks, but the Soviet Maxim can't?

Because it's wheeled?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by PeterX:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> My only Question is, why Can German HMGs like the MG42 be loaded on tanks, but the Soviet Maxim can't?

Because it's wheeled?</font>

[malthoff]

bump !

[Da Beginna]

Not really a big one:

The ammo load of Soviet on-board mortars.

[coe]

so, a question is, why didn't the germans start using thicker half tracks...and I did understand that after a while the airplane 12.7 MG started getting incorporated.

btw, do broken or panicked squads ever shoot back?

or is it considered ineffective.?

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Da Beginna:

Not really a big one:

The ammo load of Soviet on-board mortars.

Actually I think that the Soviet 50mm is one of their best units...65 HE shells on the cheap? Given their crappy Artillery ETA's they are your on-the-call lifeblood on the attack, such that you don't have to risk ISU-122/152 etc to AT fire; fire 50mm and a smattering of 82mm (for the tough walnuts) using an HQ to command your out of sight mortar firebase.

Nippy,

You mention Brummbar & Hummel as the German SPA choices, don't forget Wespe which is often low-rarity, and even Grille (150mm) is sometimes low-rarity, though both of course are far more vulnerable to the numerous Soviet ATRs than the ISU-122/152's are to the uncommon German ATRs which are lower caliber anyway (7.9mm to 14.5mm).

Soviet advantages:

Cheap Pioneers (no organic FT's), infantry that can be bought for custom roles i.e. Recon troops w/ no LMG but high ammo for suppression and speculative fire, some troops have 12 men and 3 SMGs, some are SMG only even early-war (unlike Germans). Soviet ATRs are great, Sovs gets lots of armor pts, Sov ATGs are a good idea on the attack on open/flat maps.

[CombinedArms]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their excellent posts. I'm going to study Nippy's in particular very closely indeed.

Two further questions:

1. Isn't the M17 the American quad .50 cal HT? Is it a homegrown Russian equivalent?

2. What would you say is the strongest era to choose if playing the Russians? Is somewhere mid-1944 on, to get the T-34/85, plus the mentioned assault guns? Or is there some earlier moment or moments that are more (or equally) favorable? What are the worst eras from the Russian viewpoint?

[ December 07, 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Nippy]

Nippy,

You mention Brummbar & Hummel as the German SPA choices, don't forget Wespe which is often low-rarity, and even Grille (150mm) is sometimes low-rarity, though both of course are far more vulnerable to the numerous Soviet ATRs than the ISU-122/152's are to the uncommon German ATRs which are lower caliber anyway (7.9mm to 14.5mm).

After tinkering around with the German OOB, I've found that the only Axis Assault Gun worth its salt (and with a reasonable cost/rairity) is the 105mm equiped STUH42. Other Assault guns like the Hummel and Grille are open topped, tin foil coated, self propelled coffins. One 50mm Mortar round though the top is all it takes.

On the flip side the Axis do get the heavy hitting 150mm Infantry gun. The only problem is that whenever the Ai gets LOS on it, every on map piece of Arty and FO draws a bead on it.

What would you say is the strongest era to choose if playing the Russians? Is somewhere mid-1944 on, to get the T-34/85, plus the mentioned assault guns? Or is there some earlier moment or moments that are more (or equally) favorable? What are the worst eras from the Russian viewpoint?

The best years for the Soviets is Summer of 1944 and onward. The T-34/85 is plentaful, tank and infanty quality is higher, and German Armor quality is really taking a nose dive by this time. Not to mention the ever wonderful SU-100 and JS-2 start to show up in larger numbers.

As for the worst? It has to be Spring of 1942 to Spring of 1943. The Germans now have Long Barrel 75mm and 50mm guns, the Tiger I is in service, the KV series is no long the Uber tank it was in summer of 41' thanks to the long barrel 75mm, and the T-34 still lacks a Cupla and Radios.

[White Phosphorus]

Aren't German ATRs more powerful than the Soviet ones?

[Col Deadmarsh]

No kidding. What's all this hubbub about the Soviet AT rifle? Isn't the Russian Heavy Anti-Tank rifle the same caliber (14.5) as the German one?

Is all the fuss because of all the German half-tracks/vehicles it has to shoot at?

[Stalin's Organ]

Originally posted by White Phosphorus:

Aren't German ATRs more powerful than the Soviet ones?

Err...NO!

And it's out of service quite early too - appart from its general obsolecence the Russians just didn't have lots of light armour to make it worthwhile.

OTOH the Russians kept it in spades - some 300,000 were made throughout hte war and it makes hte battlefield hell for german h/tracks.

The main reasons the Sov's won are simply not apparent in the scale of CMBB.

However I was reading something today that is intersting - the author calls Sov equipment "simple solutions to hte lack of expertise" that the average Soviet soldier had.

T34's, massed artillery (even without much control), heavy assault guns, ATR's, SMG's, rockets all fit the category - the limit hte number of choices a soldier (or commander) using/commanding them has to make to use them effectively.

[JadamoW]

The Soviet ATR is a waste of time. Taking on a PZ1VH is a long shot.

In general, the SOV's are out of it when it comes to anti-tank.

The SU-85 and T-34/85s will take on the German heavier tanks as long as Tungsten is available. Otherwise, the brittle SOV APBC tend to break up.(OF course, you've slyly manouvered your opponent so that your taking side-shots from 500M or less)

Russian infantry have hopeless Anti-tank capabilities. Suuuuuure...the ATRs will take out HTs and LTs...If you've craftily manouvered your ATRs for Side/Rear shots and managed to avoid all those 'schnitzel' eating grunt escorts then you might get lucky and get a hit on a PzIVH.

Meanwhile, the German PanzerSchreck teams in the woods 250M away are popping T34s like pimples.

I think the key to Russians is to be overwhelming. You don't just send 1 or 2 ATR teams, send 6. Of course, this tactic works for the Germans as well...Aieeeee!, How many PanzerShrecks did you get with a Battalion!?!?

JOHN

[Stalin's Organ]

Originally posted by JadamoW:

The Soviet ATR is a waste of time. Taking on a PZ1VH is a long shot.

Yep - but a Panther at 50m from the flank isn't impossible

In general, the SOV's are out of it when it comes to anti-tank.

The SU-85 and T-34/85s will take on the German heavier tanks as long as Tungsten is available. Otherwise, the brittle SOV APBC tend to break up.(OF course, you've slyly manouvered your opponent so that your taking side-shots from 500M or less)

Russian infantry have hopeless Anti-tank capabilities. Suuuuuure...the ATRs will take out HTs and LTs...If you've craftily manouvered your ATRs for Side/Rear shots and managed to avoid all those 'schnitzel' eating grunt escorts then you might get lucky and get a hit on a PzIVH.

I wish you'd make up your mind on hte level of the Sov's AT capability!!

Meanwhile, the German PanzerSchreck teams in the woods 250M away are popping T34s like pimples.

Unlikely, since it's max range is about 200m and you're going to have 1-3% hit chance at that range with 6 shots max, it gets seen as soon as it fires and attracts return fire like flies to sh1t and will be lucky to get a 3rd shot before it's dead.

ATR's OTOH pop light armour out to 500m regularly, and often never get seen at all.

I think the key to Russians is to be overwhelming. You don't just send 1 or 2 ATR teams, send 6.

Absolutely - except you don't "send" ATRs anywhere much - they aren't really good tank hungers!!

They're tank ambushers - like AT guns, only not as good, harder to see and more mobile.

Of course, this tactic works for the Germans as well...Aieeeee!, How many PanzerShrecks did you get with a Battalion!?!?

JOHN

Quite a few - let's see - 1 per platoon, 3 platoons per company, 3 companies per Bn? That makes 9.

....ooh oh.... hang on - looking at the orgs in CMBB you don't get any integral to a bn at all!!

In the mean time almost every Russian Bn gets 9 ATRs and 2 x 45mm ATG's.

[JadamoW]

Schrecks are a pain in the behind though ,and a much more effective AT weapon than an ATR.

I wish you'd make up your mind on hte level of the Sov's AT capability!!

The point is that the Russian player must work very hard to take out German armour. (especially true against a human opponent.)

Unlikely, since it's max range is about 200m and you're going to have 1-3%

I stand corrected - Panzerschrecks only have an 'effective' range of 100M. That and the ammo load out does put a damper on their effectivness.

However, at 100M they're rated at penetrating 148mm of 30 degree armour. They use HC which is also effective against infantry.

Like ATR and Tank Hunter teams, Panzershreck teams have a 'Fast' speed class, and are also very good at hiding.

On the other hand, ATRs have a range of 500M at which they are rated at penetrating 19mm of armour at 30 degrees. (at 100M they'll do 26mm).

They do have a higher ammo loadout.

They're useless against infantry.

ATR's OTOH pop light armour out to 500m regularly, and often never get seen at all.

Yes, the ATR is great aginst the light stuff.

Now what to do with that PzIV or Tiger?

They're tank ambushers - like AT guns, only not as good, harder to see and more mobile.

Yup. definitely the best approach to using these guys.

Rush them up to hopefully some key spots and hide.

....ooh oh.... hang on - looking at the orgs in CMBB you don't get any integral to a bn at all!!

Check out Grenadier44S Battallion. Comes with 18 Panzerschrecks.

In 44, the Grens, PanzerGrndr and FalshernJager muster up with PAnzerschreck teams at the Company and Battalion level. Not so for the SS though...heheh...they like to chew on T34s I guess

Overall, the ATR is more of a nuisance than a threat. I've had nothing but bad luck vs the bigger tanks with these guys. A platoon backed by a Stu42H or a Tiger is not going to feel all that threatened by ATR teams.

On the other hand a platoon of Russians backed by an ISU-122 are definitely going to worry about the possibility of encountering Panzerscherek teams.

JOHN

[Stalin's Organ]

Originally posted by JadamoW:

[Yes, the ATR is great aginst the light stuff.

Now what to do with that PzIV or Tiger?[/QB]

ISU-122's, SU-85's, T34-85's SU-100's, IS-2's all seem to have some capability.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

....ooh oh.... hang on - looking at the orgs in CMBB you don't get any integral to a bn at all!!

Check out Grenadier44S Battallion. Comes with 18 Panzerschrecks.

In 44, the Grens, PanzerGrndr and FalshernJager muster up with PAnzerschreck teams at the Company and Battalion level. [/QB]</font>

[Redwolf]

Well, you guys will notice that CMBB Quickbattles have a very strict limit on Axis tanks point-wise, I think combined arms has is as 200 of 1000 points for Axis and almost twice as much for Soviets.

I also have to remind people that a KV-1 or KV-2 in 1941 is a pretty bad surprise for the Axis, although you get at least better tank hunter teams.

Overall, in both situations I found that infantry HQs throwing ordinary hand grenades are still pretty effective against any AFV.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Nippy:

The best years for the Soviets is Summer of 1944 and onward. The T-34/85 is plentaful, tank and infanty quality is higher, and German Armor quality is really taking a nose dive by this time. Not to mention the ever wonderful SU-100 and JS-2 start to show up in larger numbers.

I disagree. I think 6/41 to about 3/42 is best for Soviets. The SU-100 doesn't appear until January '45 and is never common. The JS-2 and T-34/85 don't give the Soviets any advantage over the Germans, they just restore some level of parity to what is a rather lop-sided armor vs. armor contest before then. The only time frame when the Soviets have common equipment that the Germans have serious difficulty countering is early war.

[PiggDogg]

Vanir,

You are quite right.

Nippy,

I have to respectfully disagree.

The IS-2s, SU122s, SU152 are not a good one for one match against the German tanks & TDs of the day.

These Ruskie uber AFVs can and will certainly kill most all German AFVs with one shot. Indeed, the German AFVs (even Stgs) can kill the Ruskie uber AVFs with one shot. [watching a Stg going up when hit by a 152 monster round is really cool :eek: .]

However, those uber Ruskie AFVs' rates of fire are just too slow for them to be a good one to one (or even a 1.5 to 1) match against the strong German AFVs (cats, supersloped TDs) or even good Stgs.

(1) How many times has anyone seen any AFV hit another AFV on the first shot at range (maybe, 400-500 meters)? (2) How many times has anyone seen a 'Russian' AFV hit a German AFV on the first shot at range? Answers: (1) near zero; (2) less than zero (I'm exaggerating a very small bit, but not much ).

Don't even begin to ask these just above questions at ranges above 500 meters. The answers are obvious to everyone.

Indeed, the German AFVs will have fired at least twice and possibly thrice before those uber Ruskie AFVs get off their second shot.

When the German optics and rate of fire are considered, at near even odds, the Ruskies come off a bad second best.

In the later war times, if the Germans are smart and lucky, they keep the Ruskies at range and in front of them while hopefully remaining hull down & super sloped.

In those times, if the Ruskies are smart, they get a lot of fast T34-85s and a few uber AFVs; they they motor from cover to cover; they close the range; they get on the flanks; use smoke; (these are not in any particular order of use); and they pray a lot. :eek:

Just some opinions.

Cheers, Richard

[White Phosphorus]

Soviet ATR penetrates 35mm at 100m

German ATR penetrates 42mm at 100m

[JadamoW]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

ISU-122's, SU-85's, T34-85's SU-100's, IS-2's all seem to have some capability.

[/QB]

Yes, 'some capability'.

Whilst the a Tiger, Panther or even PzIVH have a much greater capability.

MY 'point' - the Soviets are outclassed.

except for the Grenadier 44S Bn type (this is in Jan 1945).

Grenadier 44S show up in QB troop selections in July 44.

My 'point' - these units are not all that uncommon.

ATRs are useful against light armour - if you're using them against heavy armour then you're definitely barking up the wrong tree!!

Correct Sir!. My 'point' is that the Russian infantry don't have an agile unit capable of dealing with larger threats. (AT guns are not what one would call 'agile')

They'll pay attention to it for sure, but if the 'shrek doesn't get a 1st shot hit then the whole platoon and a couple of 122 HE shells will sort it out.

My 'point' is that the Germans do have an agile infantry unit capable of dealing with any armour.

(at least the schrek gets a shot...ATR would get zip.)

I'm not sure what your point is really.

My overall 'point' is that in CMBB player playing the Soviets will have a very challenging time of it when dealing with German armour.

The player playing the Germans will find that the worry is not Russian Tanks, but the Russian terrain itself. Tiger's and even Panthers seem to bog a lot.

JOHN

[Guest Mike]

Oh, well thats OK then.

Just so long as you remember that half the German AFV's are not uber-cats of TD's, that the Tiger 88 often bounces off IS-2's at 800-1000m and hte IS-2 is perfectly capable of hitting them at that range within a round otr 2, that the T34/85 is an efficient tiger-skinner at that range too, that teh Russians have scads of agile infantry armed with SMG's, cheap artillery, lots of ATRs for taking care of teh less than uber tanks, 1/2 tracks and other light armoured vehicles such as Marders and Wespes, that the "uber" german TD's are, after all, SPG's and not tanks and have a heck of a time fighting 2 targets at once if they aren't both straight ahead, blah blah blah.

To concentrate on the lack of an infantry HEAT-based AT weapon seems a little short sighted - evidently the Rusians didn't feel any pressing need to produce one (although they used and produced 'fausts a fair bit late in the war).

German tanks are normally outnumbered in any equal points value game, and while teh T34/85 may well only be "restoring some parity" that seems good enough when you've got the numbers as well.

Wanna have a game to test our respective theories??