Partisans ?

[pad152]

Partisans are they Russian only?

I've read where Russian units would sometimes attack their own partisans after they finished fighting the Germans.

How are partisans modeled in CMBB?

Can they switch sides if attacked?

[Battlefront.com]

Partisans are Soviet only and are only available until mid 1944. The Soviets did not meet with any substantial Partisan resistance. Why not? Because Stalin had ordered Partisan units that did not sucumb to his authority (i.e. impressed into the Red Army as cannon fodder) were to be executed. Because the Red Army had been providing weapons and leadership to the Partisans, once the home bases were under Red Army control they were literally without friends.

There were some isolated Partisan attacks on Soviet rear units, but no direct military confrontation that I know about. Best known example was the assasination of Marshal Rokosovsky (SP?).

Most Partisans were burnt out from rear area fighting in any case, and were generally glad to get regular meals and pay even if the job was just as dangerous.

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Did I miss something? I was under the impression that the Soviets were battling organized units of Ukrainian guerillas not only during the war, but well into the 1950s. If they're not treated as partisans, then how are they depicted, if at all?

Also, what about Vlasov's army? That was a pretty big force.

Regards,

John Kettler

[edgars]

According to one book - Visvaldis Mangulis. "Latvia in the Wars of the 20th Century". Princeton Junction: Cognition Books, 1983:

The Lithuanian nationalist partisans who called themselves the Lithuanian Freedom Army succeeded in establishing a secret headquarters in Vilnius in January of 1947 [34]. As the largest of the three Baltic partisan groups (the initial size in April of 1945 has been estimated at 30,000 [35]) they caused about 80,000 Russian NKVD casualties between 1945 and 1949 [36], and their own losses from 1944 to 1952 probably exceeded 30,000 [37], with new recruits replacing the fallen. The lack of supplies and replacements for weapons, the collectivization (the forced joining of individual farms into a large single unit [a kolkhoz] to be worked by the whole community together under state supervision; therefore nobody had any interest in the prosperity of the kolkhoz of all farms, most of which had supported the partisans, and the fading of hope for help from the free world forced the Lithuanians to demobilize the Freedom Army between 1952 and 1955 [38], although some individual groups continued the fight after that date.

The force of 30k is pretty sizable, but is this really inside the scope of CM?

[Amedeo]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

There were some isolated Partisan attacks on Soviet rear units, but no direct military confrontation that I know about. Best known example was the assasination of Marshal Rokosovsky (SP?).

The spelling is not too off mark, but the problem is that he's the wrong person! The high soviet officer killed by ukrainian nationalists was Vatutin.

Regards,

Amedeo

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Amedeo:

[The spelling is not too off mark, but the problem is that he's the wrong person! The high soviet officer killed by ukrainian nationalists was Vatutin.

Killed by 'bandits', as Zhukov calls them.

I am not sure about combat use of Vlasov's army, I can not remember reading anything about it, except for the last few days near Prague, where they turned on the Germans during the street-fighting in the city. It was a largish force, but I would like to know a bit more about its actual use in combat.

[stalingrd]

And there were Ukrainian partisans that fought against the Germans, then when the Russians came in they fought for Ukrainian independence. These are the partisans that offed Vatutin. They had skirmishes with the red army until the 50's

Rokossovsky was of Polish ancestory and had some teeth knocked out by the NKVD during Stalin's purges of the 30's. He was let back in the army later to become a brilliant general. He has a nice Museum in his honor near Kursk along with an old bunker he was in during the battle. Good stuff! Uniforms, personal pictures ect..

He got squeezed out of the Berlin operation by Zhukov & Konev. He ended up north of Berlin with an eye to possibly take Denmark (which of course never happened)..

I know-- too much information, but dammit I think old Rokossovsky is sometimes looked over in history..

Of course all you experts let me know if I'm missing or wrong with information

[Spook]

Originally posted by stalingrd:

I know-- too much information, but dammit I think old Rokossovsky is sometimes looked over in history..

I would generally concur. In most historical forums I've participated in, I've seen little mention of Rokossovsky in the typical debates of "great WWII leaders."

My first acquaintance with his historical record was on his support in defending the Kursk salient, and how later he was willing to argue with Stalin himself on how the Bagration attack should be done.

[Liebchen]

Didn't he participate in Operation Uranus? I can't recall which front, though...

[Battlefront.com]

Hi all,

Folks you got to remember two things:

1. It is impossible for us to simulate EVERYTHING.

2. We never have, and never will, make any attempts to simulate things which are marginally or totally outside of CM's scope. Small scale (i.e. less than company sized) and rare occurances (i.e. once in a blue moon) events are both excluded from CM's coverage.

Yes, the Soviets faced quite a bit of Partisan activitiy. However, from the little bit of documentation I have seen on this, the vast bulk of the actions happened after 1945 (i.e. after CMBB's timeframe). Remember, the amount of time between the Red Army's "liberation" and the end of the war was measured in months, and much of it during the winter when Patisan activity was generally lower. They also were, in some cases, falsely led to believe that they would have more autonomy, and only went into action again after it was clear that would not be the case.

From what I can tell the initial opposition to the Red Army was either wiped out or hid out until the front past them by. For the most part their actions were more disorganized and on a MUCH smaller scale than what the Germans faced. The ambush of Vatutin is a good example. It was a small hit and run opertaion, which is completely outside of CM's scope.

I also figured out why I confused Rokossovsky with Vatutin (although I shouldn't have!). I was going from memory from a source I last read several years ago. I looked up Vatutin and reread the account of his assasination. The very next paragraph had a passage from Rokossovsky's memoirs about traveling either by air or armored train to avoid the same fate. I guess my memory was pretty good, but not perfect because I swapped the names with the events

Anyhoo...

The Germans employed tons of oddball formations, including various Kossacks, the infamous Kaminski Brigade, and the Russian Army of Liberation eventually under the command of Vlasov. These formations generally fought well in the rear and under direct German control. The Kossacks were generally used as light security or scout forces, protecting lines of communication and light pursuit of Partisans. Kossacks were also sent into Italy to take on the Partisans there, and gained a reputation for brutality very quickly. The Kaminski Brigade was used for this as well, but was best known for its brutality in Warsaw, which was so bad that Kaminski was shot by the Germans for basically being out of control. The RAL didn't do much of anything (Germans were very paranoid about using these guys) except turn on the Germans around Prague in the last days of the war, which didn't do much of anything. Any of these men captured or repatriated to the Soviets after the war ended were pretty much put to death.

So, by and large the Soviets did not face organized, large scale partisan activities that are within CM's scope. And because of that, there was no attempt to simulate them. This is a design decision that comes with no more regrets than we had not simulating British Commandos or Wehrwolf units on the Western Front. It just doesn't make sense for us to waste energy in this direction. Handling the massive Soviet Partisan vs. Axis forces scope of operations was distracting enough.

Steve

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Hi all,

Folks you got to remember two things:

1. It is impossible for us to simulate EVERYTHING.

(rest of irrelevant drivel snipped...)

Steve

I KNEW all along that you guys were FRAUDS.

Here I am waiting patiently for BTS to come out with "World War Two in 3-D with the Original Cast and Smell-O-Rama" and you drop this bomb upon us quavering groupies.

Harrumph. I'm going now, I have to re-tune my tin anti-radiation beanie, you guys really messed up my reception.