Pak36 - Stielgranate-41 in CMBB?

[Little_Black_Devil]

I'm just wondering if my little "Door Knocker" will have access not only to; AP, APCR and HE rounds but also (when applicable), its muzzle loaded stick (spigot) bomb - Stielgranate-41.

Sure its only good up to roughly 300m, but it could penetrate 180mm of armour with its oversized hollow charge warhead. :eek:

The German Army had an awfull lot of Pak36's still kicking around in 1941 that desperately needed to be made effective against Russian Armour. The Stielgranate-41 seemed to provide the solution to extend the service life of the Pak36 just a little further.

I'm not sure exactly how numerous it ended up being, or when specifically it entered service.

Yes....I admit......I've been watching "Men against Tanks" again.

I would assume, that this specialized munition, by virtue of the way it was loaded, would not likely have been used when mounted on vehicles such as the Skdfz.251/10 and Sdkfz.250/10; but I could be wrong.

Anyone know about this stuff?

[JonS]

Is that teh gun-ammo combo that was briefly shown in the "Carentan" episode of BoB?

[Little_Black_Devil]

Well, I haven't seen BoB yet, so I for one could not tell you unfortunately.

This might make it easier to see what I'm talking about;

It was muzzle loaded, and was propelled by an associated casing, which contained only propellent.

Obviously, reloading it, was a little cumbersome - particularly under combat conditions. :eek:

[Xavier]

This website:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/did.panzer/Index1.html

has a gallery with a picture which shows this weapon (2nd pic):

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/did.panzer/galerie_musee3.html

It was taken at the Bayeux Museum in Normandy.

[Poobear]

Originally posted by JonS:

Is that teh gun-ammo combo that was briefly shown in the "Carentan" episode of BoB?

Yes it is. It almost took off that one guys (Donnie Whalberg?) nuts!

[ August 21, 2002, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Poobear ]

[LightningWar]

Poobear Says:

"Yes it is. It almost took off that one guys (Donnie Whalberg?) nuts! "

Did he have that operation performed when he joined NKOTB? ROTFLMAO!

-LW

[Poobear]

Originally posted by LightningWar:

Poobear Says:

"Yes it is. It almost took off that one guys (Donnie Whalberg?) nuts! "

Did he have that operation performed when he joined NKOTB? ROTFLMAO!

-LW

[pakfan]

Ha, the SG41HL had a muzzle velocity of 110 m/s! I'd love to see that thing as regular in a duel with a regular Churchill AVRE... Could be funny. Unfortunately we probably wont have AVREs on the eastern front :-(.

[ August 21, 2002, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: pakfan ]

[Little_Black_Devil]

Well in any event - it'd be a nice tough to whats already shapping up to be an outstanding game.

I just want the bragging rights to tell my opponent that I whacked his KV with a Pak36.

Of course, watching that slow moving projectile pass through the air would likely make for some pretty tense moments too - kinda like watching Piat bombs, Panzershreks and Bazzokas lobbing rounds all about in CMBO. :eek:

[Little_Black_Devil]

Anyone else wanna see this round - or should I just let this die?

[John Kettler]

LBD,

If it was there and saw any significant use, then I'd strongly support its inclusion, code limitations permitting.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Dorosh]

Mounted on the panzergrenadier platoon commanders SPW, this could be quite potent...did the Germans use them on the Sd Kfz 251s that were armed with the Pak 36?

[Michael Emrys]

I've never seen a photo of any except on ground based guns, not that that means a whole lot. I wonder if the recoil might not have been too much for a vehicular mounting. But the decisive factor would have been that as it was a pretty short ranged weapon, it would only be effective firing from ambush against armor, although a case could be made that a vehicle-mounted weapon could be useful against strongpoints.

Michael

[ August 27, 2002, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I've never seen a photo of any except on ground based guns, not that that means a whole lot. I wonder if the recoil might not have been too much for a vehicular mounting. But the decisive factor would have been that as it was a pretty short ranged weapon, it would only be effective firing from ambush against armor, although a case could be made that a vehicle-mounted weapon could be useful against strongpoints.

Michael

Reloading would be a bitch, too - you would have to get out of the vehicle and stand on the front hood in order to load another round!

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

But the decisive factor would have been that as it was a pretty short ranged weapon, it would only be effective firing from ambush against armor, although a case could be made that a vehicle-mounted weapon could be useful against strongpoints.

Michael

Would you not use the 75L24 equipped HTs for that?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Reloading would be a bitch, too - you would have to get out of the vehicle and stand on the front hood in order to load another round!

Didn't think of that! You're right!

I suppose they could have rigged up something so that you could run it back into the fighting compartment, sort of like muzzle loading cannon on sailing ships, or rotating it around so that the muzzle was reachable from inside, but that all sounds pretty Rube Goldberg to me, even for the Germans who liked to make everything as mechanically complicated as possible.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Would you not use the 75L24 equipped HTs for that?

I would, yes, but Dorosh was asking about using the Stielgranate on 37mm guns already installed in platoon leaders' tracks, so I was trying to conceive of a justification for doing so. Just thinking out loud, in other words.

Michael

[ August 27, 2002, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Sergei]

Finnish army had that thing as well, nicknamed as broomstick (okay, no stories of Überfinns this time!). But it was found very unsatisfactory and at some occurances exploded in the muzzle, so soldiers didn't really like it.

[flamingknives]

Finnish army had that thing as well, nicknamed as broomstick

Ha! the truth will out!

Following this naming convention, the infamous Finnish "toothpick" would translate roughly as "panzerfaust". Hell, even I could knock out a tank with one o' them.

[Little_Black_Devil]

Well, as has been pointed out, reloading the Stielgranate-41 was a cumbersome process to begin with, I'm sure it would have been far too much of a hastle for the Half-Track mounted Pak36's to try and use them.

Whats more, is the range - I just can't see a HT crew willing to put its self at such unecessary risk, in order to use this munition; which by virtue of the way that it loads, might as well be a one shot weapon. I would imagine that this is not a particularly attractive scenario to find one's self in, especially if you missed with the first (and likely only) shot.

I'm sure, that the conventional Pak36 would have been able to conceal its self more readily than its HT mounted counterpart while attempting to ambush, thus possibly providing the crew with enough time to make good on a second (and hopefully effective) shot. Hard to say.

On a related note, I was reading over my copy of Ian V. Hogg's "German Artillery of World War Two", in reference to the Stielgranate-41, and on page 189, Mr. Hogg talks about the Pak36 and its stick bomb, saying;

In the later years, when it was outmatched by newer tanks, the Pak36's useful life was extended by the provision of an unusual spigot bomb; over 2,000 guns had been issued by the middle of 1941, and so it was essential to find a way of utilizing them.

Sure, this means that they were used, and that this munition likely came into service in (late) 1941. It also suggests, that it was widespread - or at least intended to be widespread (to give the existing 2,000 Pak36's a new lease on life). Hopefully, someone else has some specific figures regarding this - or even better, BTS already has the answer, and this munition has made it into CMBB.

What I found additionally interesting in Mr. Hogg's book, was that the Pak38 too, had a stick bomb - the Stielgranate-42, which was capeable of the same penetration as the Stielgranate-41 (180mm/30°).

Here is a picture of the Stielgranate-42 from the same book;

The Stielgranate-42, functioned exactly as the Stielgranate-41 did, and its tail was made large enough so as to fit over the muzzle break - hence the rather "large" and awkward appearence. The reommended range for this weapon however, was 150m. I doubt, that the Stielgranate-42 was made in the same numbers that the Stielgranate-41 was likely produced in, though I'am speculating.

Still, its interesting to note that such a munition existed for this gun too, though its not quite as clear as to whether or not it was developed to increase the Pak38's effective lifespan or not - as was clearly the case with the Pak36. In any event, it would seem that muzzle loaded stick bombs were not quite so obscure as one might initially think, though without a more specific source, this is difficult to verfiy.

In any event - I certainly think that this munition warrants more investigation, which might better conclude whether or not its really "worthy" of implementation or not.