Kanonier Reichmann Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 I had a hell of a shock just recently when I was trying to finish off one remaining surrounded Pz IVJ where I had managed to get a couple of T34-85's behind the PzIV, and 2 IS2's at roughly a 120 degrees tangent from where my T34's were. Thinking this will be easy meat I hunted both my IS2's up a small ridge to get LOS onto the PzIV at about 150 metres away with my significantly higher elevation (to further assist ricochets) & to my disgust, they both backed away out of LOS once they saw the intended target. I'm thinking...WHAT THE F%#@? These are regular IS2's, the heaviest Soviet tank in their arsenal in 1944 and yet they're turning tail against a solitary PzIV that is surrounded! To further my frustration, because the IS2's didn't do their bit this lucky PzIV was able to wax both my T34-85's. To say I was less than impressed would be a major understatement. Anybody else seen this sort of behaviour from the IS2 heavy tank? Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Bull Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Yes Kanonier, You are not the first to notice that the cream of Soviet armor (the heavy IS2!) will retreat at the sight of German armor. My own personal experience with this seemingly unusual behaviour was when I noticed IS2's retreating from the sight of a genericly identified German "assualt gun". It seemed ridiculoous that the best Russian tank available will retreat like that. I have checked this on my own QB with Vet IS2 crews (at least) and they also retreat when a generic "assualt gun" was spotted at ~750m. The test was conducted using both versions of the IS2. I discussed this somewhat with others but was told that this is the way it is and not a bug. I do not know how well known this default TacAI behaviour is, but this is the first post I have seen regrding it. I was not aware that this behaviour seems to also apply to sighting generic PZIVs as well!! I am even more surprised. Be interetsing to hear other thoughts on this. Lt Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iconoclast Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Originally posted by Lt Bull: You are not the first to notice that the cream of Soviet armor (the heavy IS2!) will retreat at the sight of German armor. Lt Bull[/QB]It's not only the cream of the crop that is affected this way. Playing a June '41 scenario, I had a platoon of BT-5's hull down waiting to ambush some on-coming German 222's and Pz II's. As soon as the first two opposing light armor vehiclec got into sight, the entire platoon of Soviets decamped! This was a situation where both sides could handily penetrate their opponent's armor. The BT's definitely had a fighting chance (particularly as they were engaging from a hull down ambush), but got picked off (my opponent likened it to clubbing baby seals!) when they tried to flee instead of fight. Sometimes the tac AI's decisions on issues like this are downright baffling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 I'm just wondering if this has been discussed elsewhere (other threads) or is this new? Does it happen in v1.01 curious :confused: -tom w [ November 24, 2002, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Yes, I've noticed this too. In one scenario I was playing as Germans, I noticed some of the opposing T-34's started backing up when they saw my Pz IIIL(?) 's (w/50mm gun). I advanced the platoon of Mk III's across the map, wiping up the field with the retreating T-34's, and without loss to themselves. One or two of the T-34's did stand and fight, but were waxed along with the cowardly ones. At the end I think every Mk III in the platoon had notched up at least 4 T-34's. Will have to put them up against some JS-2's and see if they run away too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 I had an ISU-122 retreating out of LOS from (correctly identified) Mk IV long's, the 122 being hulldown, the Mk IVs not. People tell me I have halluzinations, so I figure you must have them, too, so shut up already. [ November 24, 2002, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterGoodale Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 YES!!! :mad: I have had this same scenario (different tank) happen to me. I know BF said they will not be releasing too many patches for this game, and believe me I love the game, but there is no way in hell it is realistic for a group of similarly powerful soviet tabks to retreat like a bunch of cry babies when they spot ONE SINGLE German tank!! :mad: :mad: C'mon people, somebody please defend this behavior with a sound argument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 I guess we will have to rely in Sturmoviks to kill German armor! Or maybe the surprise use of towed guns...but I guess that would mean the 85mm AA as the 76mm is probably too weak unless it scores w/ tungsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolloff Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 I don´t think this is new or got introduced with 1.01. The JSIIs did that in Jaegermeister, the second CD scenario I touched. They were facing Tigers, so it´s understandable to a certain degree. The only thing that helped was shoot and scoot. Looking at the carnage that resulted from the plain "move" orders during my first attempt I think those Russian tankers were quite clever. There seems to be some "his chances to kill me are higher than mine" consideration going on on behalf of the TacAI. I had German StuGIII Fs retreating from Russian KV1s in a long-range engagement as well. Higher experience levels should come to a more realistic assessment than "green" troops. Can anyone confirm this? Nolloff [ November 24, 2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Nolloff ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Originally posted by Nolloff: There seems to be some "his chances to kill me are higher than mine" consideration going on on behalf of the TacAI. I had German StuGIII Fs retreating from Russian KV1s in a long-range engagement as well. Higher experience levels should come to a more realistic assessment than "green" troops. Can anyone confirm this? No, in my case both sides had regular vehicles. The kill chances of an ISU-122 on a Mk IV are not entirely in the German favour. The ISU has "excellent", the Mk IV has "fair" at 700m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkai88 Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 I have posted on another board about this very thing. To be honest, I've seen Germans do it as well, just not nearly as often. The thing that really po's me is when I spend 5 turns outflanking a German tank and pop up on his side only to have a whole platoon refuse to take a single shot. UGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!! :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatterbrain Kid Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Maybe crew quality plays a part,i.e.-conscripts run nearly every time wheras elites almost never? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 I've figured it out. The Bolshevik tanks are running away due to German use of the previously unknown "Entsetzen Impulsgeber" or "Fright Emitter". This device generates a hologram around the vehicle using it, which makes it appear to be a King Tiger to the easily deceived eyes of the Untermenschen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Originally posted by Sgt. Steiner: I've figured it out. The Bolshevik tanks are running away due to German use of the previously unknown "Entsetzen Impulsgeber" or "Fright Emitter". This device generates a hologram around the vehicle using it, which makes it appear to be a King Tiger to the easily deceived eyes of the Untermenschen... As opposed to the Soviet Mark-3A "Uber-Ego-Bloater" mind control ray emmiter which makes STUG and PZIV crews think they can stand up to 500m Slug fests with JS-3s and T-44s? "I'm l33t! I'm l33t! My Tin foil tank can't be beat! I'm the best and the Russians are pests! I'm l33t! I'm l33t! I'm..." KABOOM! "Uber that Comrade!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Originally posted by Sgt. Steiner: I've figured it out. The Bolshevik tanks are running away due to German use of the previously unknown "Entsetzen Impulsgeber" or "Fright Emitter". This device generates a hologram around the vehicle using it, which makes it appear to be a King Tiger to the easily deceived eyes of the Untermenschen... As opposed to the Soviet Mark-3A "Uber-Ego-Bloater" mind control ray emmiter which makes STUG and PZIV crews think they can stand up to 500m Slug fests with JS-3s and T-44s? "I'm l33t! I'm l33t! My Tin foil tank can't be beat! I'm the best and the Russians are pests! I'm l33t! I'm l33t! I'm..." KABOOM! "Uber that Comrade!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Or it may not be because of the emitter at all, but just too much vodka which causes the Ivans to see Tiger II's instead of Panzer II's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Originally posted by Scatterbrain Kid: Maybe crew quality plays a part,i.e.-conscripts run nearly every time wheras elites almost never?As I said, all regular in my case. And as far as I can tell, the crew quality does not influence CM's decision to back off of a tank clash. [EDIT: I mean the enemy crew quality] [ November 27, 2002, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoryC Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 I've also witnessed this behaviour from soviet tanks. My opponent had 3 T34's waiting in ambush in a field just beyond a small rise. My 2 lead PzIII's hit the rise and come into sight. The T34's open fire for no effect. PzIII's return fire for no effect, T34's begin reversing. PzIII's keep firing at reversing T34's, scoring some non penetrating hits & ricochets. T34's seem to panic more and begin moving in random directions now giving up side shots. All T34's die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolloff Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 Okay, I did a test (did I see someone yawn??): 800m map, a ridge on the German side. German tanks behind the ridge. On the other side two regular KV 1 1941 on open terrain. 4 x Pz III H, regular crews, HQ with +2 Orders and morale retreat when moving onto the ridge and sighting the Russians. When ordered back onto the ridge they retreat every turn. 3 x Stug IIIF (late), same crews/HQ stats do not retreat. Russians are the same in both tests. There seems to be a tank vs. tank relationsship. The matrix of fear so to say. Before I get butchered. I do not hold a degree in Statistics. Cheers! Nolloff [ November 24, 2002, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Nolloff ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolloff Posted November 24, 2002 Share Posted November 24, 2002 hehe, that´s funny: Same situation, Stug IIIF retreat, Stug IIIF (late) do not. Multiple tries, same results. PzIV F2 retreat as well. Nolloff [ November 24, 2002, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Nolloff ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makes The Jelly Judder Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 Some times I'm glad when my Russian tanks get imobilized in the first volley of a fight. I think "Great at least they will stand and fight", and not get killed whilst retreating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Jerkov Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 They dont auto-abandon the vehicle? Miraculous! They must have been fanatics or elite! [ November 24, 2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Major Jerkov ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 umm.... another point of view.... Spoiler alert of The Iron Road Block ------------------------------------ This scenario is largely on 1 kv thank vs the more than 10 AFVs: Panzer IIs, IIIs, SPs, 38s, 88 flak(s) and numerous half-tracks, and probably a couple of platoons with anti-tank capabilities. My lone KV-1s at 900m killed off 9 AFVs when the game ended at turn 20+. so, maybe at close quarters, the russkies may panic, but at 900 meters, my KV-1 ruled. My tank hunter team was not even activated. laxx ps. i like "the matrix of fear", good term... [ November 24, 2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: laxx ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted November 25, 2002 Author Share Posted November 25, 2002 Interesting responses. I'd liken the IS2's automatic retreat response when up against a single identified Pz IVJ as exactly similar to the way Sherman 75's would automatically back away when they spotted a Panther or Tiger in CMBO. There's gotta be something wrong here doesn't there? You might as well not bother with purchasing the heavy IS2's if this is the way they behave against pretty fragile enemy armour. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lassner.1 Posted November 25, 2002 Share Posted November 25, 2002 The thing that is MOST frustrating about this armor behavior is the following. In CM:BB the chances for a moving AFV with a cannon (X) to hit a stationary target (Y) is (correctly!) very slim. In other words, if X is to hit Y, X should STOP. So when X (with a fair-to-good chance to kill its target) begins, instead, to back away from Y, X usually foregoes whatever chance it had to kill Y. It will be unlikely for X to score a hit, and X will, instead, probably be picked off by Y. This behavior seem far more exaggerated in CM:BB than it was in CM:BO, and it can be rather frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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