The T-34, Russia's Ace in the Hole

[Wild Bill Wilder]

I'm wondering if any of you have any info on the first appearance in combat of the T-34 tank?

My research shows it was near Bialystok, on July 1st, 1941. I know, however, that a number of you are much more knowledgeable of this kind of thing than I.

Anyone agree or disagree with this? What sources did you use if you do? What did you discover if anything. I'd be delighted to hear what you might have on the subject.

[Pzman]

Bill I remember, from reading in the book "The Road to Stalingrad" by John Erickson, that there may have been one in action as early as June 30th 1941, I will have to look that up though.

[ February 15, 2002, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Panzerman ]

[Tiger]

The book "The T-34 Russian Battle Tank" by Hughes & Mann places the first battle involving T-34s in the south at the battle of Brody-Dubno with Russian general Kirponos attacking Panzer Group One commanded by Kliest on the 26th of June, using "several hundred T-34s and KV-1 tanks" along with the usual assortment of light BT and T-26's/28's.

Another attack by some T-34s took place with Kirponos attacking General Heinrici's 16th Panzer division on June 29th and "sending the German unit reeling back from the battlefield".

However, Kirponos's tank forces were "shattered" by these efforts and Kirponos himself "killed defending Kiev."

In my humble opinion the KV-1 is also another "ace-in-the hole" for the Russians in 1941

-john

[ February 15, 2002, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Tiger ]

[Michael Dorosh]

I can't speak with authority on the VERY first combat action involving the T-34, but I can imagine it came as a rude shock to many different units until news of this new threat spread across the front.

In Squadron-Signal's book WAFFEN SS IN ACTION, the first encounter by an SS unit with a T-34 is chronicled; a StuG III with short barreled 75mm gun fired several rounds at a T-34 to little effect, and one soldier finally had to approach on foot and poor gasoline on the vehicle to set it on fire. He was badly wounded in the process.

I just tipped the apartment upside down looking for the book, but wasn't able to locate it; I'll try and dig out the date.

[Jeff Duquette]

Bill:

I recall Glantz discussing this topic in:

"The Initial Period of War on the Eastern Front, 22 Jun - August 1941". Frank Cass Collection.

The Red Army apparently launched numerous armored counterattacks in the initial days/weeks of the war with armored divisions and mechanized divisions equipped with KV's and T34's in the operating areas of Army Group North as well as Army Group Center. Anyway I would recommend taking a look at Glantz'z book for a little more precise information than what I am presenting here.

[antaresqc]

Hello Wild Bill,

Seems like you are working on scenarios for CMBB hehehe In The second world war by John Keegan, on page 192, it is mentioned that the south-western front had a high proportion of T-34's in service. The 5th and 6th armies commanded by Kirponos counter-attacked and tried to pinch the spearheads of the panzer breakthrough composed of the Panzer group 1 who was commanded by Kleist on the 28th or 29th of June. So it is very well possible that those dates saw combat involvijng T-34 since those armies had a high proportion of them in service... Hope it helps...

[fallweiss]

not sure how reliable these sources are but my quick search turned up June 22nd at Grodno.

3rd paragraph...

http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/ww2-equipment-tank-t34.htm

obbs from June 22...http://orbat.com/site/data/historical/russia/wfront.html

[James Crowley]

The encounter Michael Dorosh refers to was from the I. Kompanie SS Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung "LSSAH" at Mariupol, July 1941.

Nice photo and quite a good little book, Michael.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Hi WB,

By coincidence i was reading the history of the Second World War and I was at Volume 2 (Barberossa). The T34 was already in service at the start of Operation Barberossa although it had not yet replaced the more obsolete tanks - From a CMBB point of view it is safe to say that the T34 can be placed in a Battle at any date after June 22nd 1941. The book does not specifically say which date the T34's were engaged but for sure it was very soon after the Operation started

CDIC

[Kingfish]

For what it's worth:

Russo / Japanese war

About halfway down it states:

"Before August 1939 he (Zhukov) had acquired 550 front line aircraft, 500 state-of-the-art T34 tanks, twenty cavalry squadrons and thirty-five infantry battalions".

[Mattias]

While on the subject of Russian armour. Does anybody know where the English language version of Russian Military Zone has gone? My old link, http://history.vif2.ru/ , lands me in a distinctly Cyrillic environment.

I was trying to find out what they had to say about the first deployments of T-34's

M.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by James Crowley:

The encounter Michael Dorosh refers to was from the I. Kompanie SS Sturmgeschutz-Abteilung "LSSAH" at Mariupol, July 1941.

Nice photo and quite a good little book, Michael.

Thanks for the assist! It's a very dramatic picture, wish I could post it!

[Michael Dorosh]

For what it is worth, the ASL Rulebook give a figure of 967 as the number of T-34s on inventory in the Western Military Districts on 22 June 1941.

It does not state how many were runners, how many were assigned to "front line" units, or how far forward they were deployed. Take it with a grain of salt, but it's a number.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Mattias:

While on the subject of Russian armour. Does anybody know where the English language version of Russian Military Zone has gone? My old link, http://history.vif2.ru/ , lands me in a distinctly Cyrillic environment.

http://www.battlefield.ru/

gotta run,

cheers,

Markus

[Kevin Kinscherf]

Here is what I found this morning ...

The new tanks began to appear as the

Germans hit the second (operational)line.

Loks as though some units had more and

some less. Below are two battle where they

were used in numbers taht caused them to

be noted in writings.

Early T34 Battle

Tolochino (or Lipki)

3 July 1941 (18th Panzer)

Early KV Battle

Daugava River (or Rasennai)

25 June (6th Panzer)

Glantz "Stumbling Colossus" p. 117

New KV and T34 med. tanks were in

esp. short supply, with only 1861

in service 22 June.

Of this total, 1475 were distributed

unevenly to Corps in the

western miliary districts.

Page 118

Because the new model KV and T34 were

secret, by June 22 only 20 of Corps

personel had any experiance operating

with them.

P130

KV tanks were in service before 27 June

Fugate and Dvoretsky "Thunder on the Dnepr"

p. 107

The new T34 and KV tanks that were being

produced would outclass anything the Germans

had in the field at the time so it was

decided to reserve them in order to stiffen

the back of the operational echelon along

the Dnepr-Dvina line and to provide the

cutting edge of the eventual counter

offensive. Western historians had chided

the Russians for not forming the new

tanks into proper formations and not

bringing them to the border areas in

June, but there was method to there madness.

In June July and August the greatest

benefit would have to be derived from the

older tanks to slow down the panzer and

harass their infantry.

[Panzer_Meyer]

Micheal Dorosh,

I found a picture and an passage from a book you decribe, exactly. It's called Grenadiers, by Kurt "panzer" Meyer. He describes encountering the T-34 for the first time, they shot at it with 3.7mm Paks and some Armored Cars to no affect. So "assault troops leader Bergemann fell while trying to destroye this T-34". Thats the quote next to the pic and the pic shows a soldier with a satchel charge running up to a T-34. He is about 10m from it, but you can tell he was already hit, he is holding is stomach and is sort of leaning over as if he is about to fall.

In the same shot is a StugIII about 25m from the T-34, facing it frontally. (The soldier is 10m to the side of the T-34) Right after it shot it from 25m and Knocking out the T-34. The T-34 is on fire. This all one picture!

There is a whole parapgraph about this action, I'll write it over and post it in a bit.

[Wild Bill Wilder]

I don't think anyone knows with utter certainty when the first encounter took place, at least in the documentations we all have. They vary from the 22nd of June until July 1st.

Most likely it was in the first days of the war. Halder's note "New Soviet Tanks" mentioned in Clark's Barbarossa indicates that they were aware of its danger and deadliness early on.

That, coupled with the appearance of the KV-1, were quite a bitter suprise for the smaller, less adequately armed Panzers. Here is a quote from one of the German tankers on sidling up beside an abandoned T-34 in his Mark III.

“Compared to that tank, ours seemed like a cigarette box. I remember thinking, ‘how will we ever be able to destroy these?’”

I would assume a lot of tank commanders had that ominous presage.

Thanks for the reply, guys!

..Wild Bill

[patolino]

Originally posted by Wild Bill Wilder:

That, coupled with the appearance of the KV-1, were quite a bitter suprise for the smaller, less adequately armed Panzers.

This seems to be one of those cases where the 3rd Reich skipped its intelligence homework (not that it surprises anyone). After all, KV saw test use in the Winter War. One would suppose them to have at least some sort of spying network inside their main ideological enemy's borders, too, but apparently not...

Anyway, should provide loads of fun for early days of CMBB timeline...

[Andreas]

Men against tanks (warning - 160k picture)

Picture taken by my grandfather, early during Barbarossa, judging from its position in the original pile. He was in Army Group North.

I second Jeff's recommendation of Glantz' 'The initial period of war'. There is a lot of primary source material in there, because it is essentially the proceedings of a seminar, at which numerous German officers who were with the Wehrmacht during Barbarossa gave presentations. Crap maps though. I would take anything in that book over evidence from a secondary source anytime. I unfortunately do not have the time to trawl it at the moment for exact dates.

Regarding 'Ace in the hole' status. Yes, to a point. The fact that the heavies and mediums were frittled away in pointless counter-attacks, and that their crews had little training on them, little fuel, and sometimes no ammo at all, made them much less scary to the Germans than they otherwise would have been. Also, 100mm cannon and 105mm howitzers could defeat them and did, as did the 8,8. They did cause a crisis when they appeared, but the German commanders overcame those again and again. Other factors were more important.

[Michael Dorosh]

Strangely enough, Infantry Regiment GD didn't encounter a T-34 until October. Their task was flank security for Panzer Group Guderian, so maybe that isn't so strange - but one has to wonder what the experience of regular German infantry units was - and how many even saw a T-34 at all in the whole of 1941...(just felt the need to add that annoying "armour isn't everything" dig one more time, sorry....)

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Men against tanks (warning - 160k picture)

Picture taken by my grandfather, early during Barbarossa, judging from its position in the original pile. He was in Army Group North.

Andreas, was your grandad in the German equivalent of a "Bantam Battalion", or was the KV really as freakin' big as it looks in that picture?

[Panzer_Meyer]

Here are the shots from Grenadiers, by Kurt Meyer.

He describes encountering the T-34 for the first time, they shot at it with 3.7mm Paks and some Armored Cars to no affect. So "assault troops leader Bergemann fell while trying to destroye this T-34". Thats the quote next to the pic and the pic shows a soldier with a satchel charge running up to a T-34. He is about 10m from it, but you can tell he was already hit, he is holding is stomach and is sort of leaning over as if he is about to fall. In the same shot is a StugIII about 25m from the T-34, facing it frontally. (The soldier is 10m to the side of the T-34) Right after it shot it from 25m and Knocking out the T-34. The T-34 is on fire.

(I circled Bergmann)

Here is another shot, where Bubi Burose destroyes a Russain armored car.

[SpazManOught]

Posted by Michael Dorosh

Andreas, was your grandad in the German equivalent of a "Bantam Battalion", or was the KV really as freakin' big as it looks in that picture?

I've got a 1:35 scale model KV1B on my moniter sitting next to a 1:35 Panzer II. The KV looks huge in comparison, I thought they were in different scales until I stuck in the tank comanders.

[Michael Dorosh]

Great pics, Rommel, thanks! (And for the KV-1 reply).

I think the photo I'm thinking of was taken a few seconds later, where the wounded soldier is being carried back - I didn't know the one you posted even existed.

It makes you think - for every WW II photo you see, there was an entire roll of film in the guy's camera, meaning two or three dozen other photos that are probably laying in an archive somewhere, never to be seen. I love finding sequences of photos in different sources.

[Panzer_Meyer]

Same with me, I always wonder what happens to the guys in the pictures, do they survive, are they captured and so on. It is really interesting to look at a picture especially when there is a face and a name to go with the face.

When I read the book (Grenadiers) or other books (Deadly Combat comes to mind) I sometimes get attached to the soldier/author writting the book or even the soldiers/friends the author mentions.

Bubi Burose, the soldier assualting the russain Armored car was killed later in the war, I think it was in the same month too.

And other name stands out from the book, Gerd Bremer. He was a company leader of a motorcycle company. Kurt Meyer refers to him as very heroic and as a very good leader.

Here is a picture of Gerd Bremer (from Grenadiers, by Kurt Meyer):

[ February 17, 2002, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Rommel22 ]