Auto-sneak-exhaustion not improved in 1.01

[Battlefront.com]

So you all find it OK that a HMG goes out of comission for 15 turns on one turn of CM firepower 17?

And you think it is well integrated with the rest of the game's mechanics, like how squads behave under similar circumstances?

No, I haven't commented on your latest findings because I can not replicate them. I don't understand why people have the time to write volumes on this BBS and yet can't email me a 10k file.

Steve

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

[QB]Redwolf,

I just wasted another 20 minutes trying to reproduce what you have seen and did NOT see it. I'm not even going to read this thread again until I see a file in front of me that reproduces what you are seeing.

But the savegames are there, SuperSulo's post on page two. It is not even stuff by me.

I know they are easy to overlook, did it myself.

[ November 24, 2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Joe Shaw]

Originally posted by redwolf:

So you all find it OK that a HMG goes out of comission for 15 turns on one turn of CM firepower 17?

And you think it is well integrated with the rest of the game's mechanics, like how squads behave under similar circumstances?

Your first point is a reasonable question that I won't get into.

On the second point, though, I don't see why HMG teams and rifle squads should react in the same way to the same stimulus. The squad is more nimble, less encumbered and able to be less exposed while returning fire. Add to that the setup time for the HMG before it can defend itself and I don't think they WOULD react in the same way.

That doesn't really address your main question as to whether or not the HMG team should react in the way they appear to react to a given stimulus, but I don't think the two should be compared as equivilant.

Joe

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

So you all find it OK that a HMG goes out of comission for 15 turns on one turn of CM firepower 17?

And you think it is well integrated with the rest of the game's mechanics, like how squads behave under similar circumstances?

Your first point is a reasonable question that I won't get into.

</font>

[Redwolf]

[double post]

[ November 24, 2002, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[aka_tom_w]

I sent SuperSulo's files to Steve.

I saved one (#5) in particular where the behaviour was easy to replicate.

-tom w

[ November 24, 2002, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Cull]

Again we see why we differ so much on how things are modeled in CMBB. 20-30m isn't close? I doubt any REAL soldier would make such a claim. This is well within the effective killing range of any small arm, even a pistol for cripes sakes.

No, if I'm following correctly, he's saying friendlies 20-30 meters away from the unit in question are receiving the fire, not that the fire is being received from 20-30m out.

Just for the record, I'm completely sick of this subject. I also agree that there is a problem, as in, a problem significant enough to warrant a fix. For some reason, though, it just isn't at a "ruin the whole thing" level for me.

[Battlefront.com]

Redwolf,

But the savegames are there, SuperSulo's post on page two. It is not even stuff by me.

Tom just emailed it to me and I found no problems.

One Team was Sneaking and Exhausted on Turn 6. I canceled its order on Turn 8. The unit sat there and wasn't fired on any more. It steadily recovered and by Turn 12 it was at "Ready".

So what was I supposed to see? From what I can tell, you think there are two problems:

1. Stuck in Sneak Mode even if not Panicked (or worse).

2. Take an unreasonable amount of time to recover.

Neither were the case in this test scenario, the two I did a half hour ago, or the one I did a day or two ago.

Jack,

No, if I'm following correctly, he's saying friendlies 20-30 meters away from the unit in question are receiving the fire, not that the fire is being received from 20-30m out.

Ahh... OK, that is different. However, remember that units aren't simulated sitting on the head of a pin point. Two unit's centers might be 20m apart, but each might be occupying about 10m-15m abreast. Therefore, some of the men are literally right next to each other. And if the enemy is using Area Fire the spread is more than direct targeting.

Also keep in mind that the behavior of a unit being "spooked" by neighboring fire is very easily shook off. It really doesn't do much of anything unless the unit is crappy and already isn't all that happy.

Steve

[Cpt.Kloss]

I do not see this as a serious problem, HMG is a very heavy stuff. However I do not understand why HMG crews never abandon it!

In some situations you may actually want your HMG to be immobilised - no sneaking/running away etc...and this pretty unrealistic - last man and his HMG - till the very end.

[SuperSulo]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Tom just emailed it to me ...

Don't feel bad, I'm used to being ignored...

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

One Team was Sneaking and Exhausted on Turn 6. I canceled its order on Turn 8. The unit sat there and wasn't fired on any more. It steadily recovered and by Turn 12 it was at "Ready".

So what was I supposed to see? From what I can tell, you think there are two problems:

1. Stuck in Sneak Mode even if not Panicked (or worse).

2. Take an unreasonable amount of time to recover.

Neither were the case in this test scenario, the two I did a half hour ago, or the one I did a day or two ago.

Steve

Seriously, do you have a different version than I do? Or is it a Mac/PC thing? I have v1.01 for PC.

1.

Here you can clearly see the Move order for the HMG. It is PINNED, "not Panicked (or worse)".

Here is a snapshot 56 seconds into the following action phase. It is clearly seen that it has reverted back to sneaking.

2.

Turn 12 "Ready", Turn 16 "Rested". Ok, here we just seem to disagree. You think it's correct for a HMG to be "out of action" 10-14 minutes AFTER someone fired at them from 900m. Redwolf (and I too, I must say) thinks that's a long time.

[Battlefront.com]

SuperSulo,

First of all, if there is some difference between Mac and PC, it would be the first such case since CMBO. For now I would rule that possibility out

Here is a snapshot 56 seconds into the following action phase. It is clearly seen that it has reverted back to sneaking.

OK... now here is why we don't like to be doing this sort of "testing" in posts, and it is why I have been asking for files now for some time.

Is the problem *only* that when a unit has a Sneak order you can not replace it with a Move order? Is that the *only* condition that is a problem? I am not beginning to think it is. If that is the case, it explains a lot. It is also a far cry from the problem as originally presented to us (over and over again).

I'll check with Charles about this SPECIFIC behavior. My understanding of this is that it is intentional, but perhaps it isn't optimal. I'll report back when I hear from Charles.

Turn 12 "Ready", Turn 16 "Rested". Ok, here we just seem to disagree. You think it's correct for a HMG to be "out of action" 10-14 minutes AFTER someone fired at them from 900m. Redwolf (and I too, I must say) thinks that's a long time.

It has *nothing* to do with how far away, how long, or how powerful the shooting was. It is completely and utterly irrelevant. What is relevant is how long the unit was Sneaking, under fire or just for the heck of it. The thing that tires the unit out is Sneak, not being under fire.

In the example I saw, an Exhausted unit recovered within 4 minutes, which is entirely reasonable. Redwolf had been talking about units not recovering within 25 minutes, and that is something I have yet to see.

Er... hopefully we are moving closer to narrowing this down. Unfortunately, it looks like the initial claims were very overstated and that there is a tiny problem here, if even that. Which makes sense to me since most people haven't noticed this in games nor been able to replicate it in tests.

Ain't testing fun?

Steve

[Tarquelne]

Thanks for pointing out where the files are, redwolf.

Here's what I found in my non-exhaustive testing:

A HMG unit with orders to Move will always use Sneak while at a morale state of Alerted or worse. The second the morale state improves above Alterted the unit will stop sneaking and use Move to move.

While at Alterted or worse the unit's orders don't change to Sneak, but stay at Move... the line stays Move blue, not Sneak brown. However, as stated above, the unit will use Sneak anyway if at Alerted or worse.

A MG unit can move to Alerted pretty easily. Using SuperSlo's stealthy saves I saw a HMG unit go back to Alerted when the only enemy unit firing was at the opposite corner of the map. (I'm guessing this is consitent with the squad morale model, it just has much nastier consequences for HMGs.)

However, I didn't see a unit go to Alerted without already having taken some HMG fire. So I never saw a unit go into the auto-Sneak Spirl of Doom from fire merely being somewhere near the unit.

I didn't look at the length of Exhuastion. I did find that Hiding units stayed put.

So: This seems to mean you _cannot_ move a HMG unit that is under at least moderatly effective fire (or thinks that it's being fired at) without using Sneak. Either you tell it to Sneak, or it uses Sneak.

What is real SOP for a not-setup HW unit in the open and under fire?

[ November 24, 2002, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

"Is the problem *only* that when a unit has a Sneak order you can not replace it with a Move order? Is that the *only* condition that is a problem? I am not beginning to think it is. If that is the case, it explains a lot. It is also a far cry from the problem as originally presented to us (over and over again)."

Steve

Thanks Steve

Yes

I think that is the whole issue right there.

Once the HMG chooses to sneak it does so until it becomes exhausted. BUT it seems now that one "work around" is to order the unit to Hide, so long as the unit is not paniced and you can issue an order.

the bug seems to be the once the HMG is "flustered" you cannot overide its Sneak order and it will choose to Sneak until it is exhausted.

-tom w

[ November 24, 2002, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Is the problem *only* that when a unit has a Sneak order you can not replace it with a Move order?

It accepts the change of orders, but it either immedeately switches back to a sneak order at the beginning of next combat, or it keeps the move order but actually sneaks (and the display besides the gun rack shows sneak, although the line is blue).

Is that the *only* condition that is a problem? I am not beginning to think it is. If that is the case, it explains a lot. It is also a far cry from the problem as originally presented to us (over and over again).

I have re-read my initial posting and I had to ask for help if it was in any way misrepresenting the problem. Of course we have a lot more detail now.

I'll check with Charles about this SPECIFIC behavior. My understanding of this is that it is intentional, but perhaps it isn't optimal. I'll report back when I hear from Charles.

Thanks (really).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Turn 12 "Ready", Turn 16 "Rested". Ok, here we just seem to disagree. You think it's correct for a HMG to be "out of action" 10-14 minutes AFTER someone fired at them from 900m. Redwolf (and I too, I must say) thinks that's a long time.

It has *nothing* to do with how far away, how long, or how powerful the shooting was. It is completely and utterly irrelevant. What is relevant is how long the unit was Sneaking, under fire or just for the heck of it. The thing that tires the unit out is Sneak, not being under fire.

</font>

[Renaud]

On the contrary, my favorite fights are infantry-only. This gives you slower-paced, more thoughtful engagement where you don't have to worry about the side with the last tank simply cleaning up the map.

I avoid moving HMG teams in the open where they might get fired upon, because I know it will be difficult to extricate them once they are pinned down. I recommend this to you redwolf. I judge the chance of CMBB HMG behavior in the open under fire being altered as slim to none. Maybe a future CM will come out that allows abandoning and recrewing of crew-served weapons. This would address the exhaustion issue. But of course then your HMG will be left on a fire-swept field, hehe.

Ren

[SuperSulo]

[EDIT] Doh! I just wanted to add that when I started typing this post, noone had replied after Steve's latest post. Now he wont see my reply again... Curses to my slow typing![/EDIT]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

SuperSulo,

First of all, if there is some difference between Mac and PC, it would be the first such case since CMBO. For now I would rule that possibility out

Ok... I just had to ask, it wouldn't have been the first time I've seen differences between architectures. Just such a small thing as Big vs Little Endians... But never mind that now

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Here is a snapshot 56 seconds into the following action phase. It is clearly seen that it has reverted back to sneaking.

OK... now here is why we don't like to be doing this sort of "testing" in posts, and it is why I have been asking for files now for some time.

</font>

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Renaud:

I avoid moving HMG teams in the open where they might get fired upon, because I know it will be difficult to extricate them once they are pinned down. I recommend this to you redwolf.

You mean I should use cover when available?

Shocking news, never thought about that one

[Battlefront.com]

Oy... my head

OK, would everybody participating in this discussion PLEASE keep in mind that the details are critically important. As such, there is absolutely no such thing as a single overriding "sneak of death" bug that is messing everything up all the time for some people and hardly ever (or never) for everybody else.

I am going to do my darndest to straighten out this mess because as far as I can tell there is no "bug" nor is there actually a "problem" except, perhaps, people making complex and varied behavior perceived as one big problem. So here goes... wish me luck Assume I am only talking about HMG units and nothing more.

----

First of all, apologies in advance for calling two things "myths". These statements have been batted about many times as if they were fact, and neither are true. Overgeneralizations like this make disection of the perceived problem difficult because I, and others, spend time debunking instead of focusing on the facts. Now that I am finally figuring out (more or less) what obsevations are accurate and which aren't, I can now better understand how to explain why things work the way they do...

Myth 1 - "the bug seems to be the once the HMG is "flustered" you cannot overide its Sneak order and it will choose to Sneak until it is exhausted."

Fact - if the unit is not Panicked (or worse) the unit is NOT stuck in Sneak until it becomes uselss. You can simply cancel the Sneak order and the unit will stop or issue a Pause to get it to stop moving. That is hardly "stuck" and done soon enough prevents Exhaustion. Unless, of course, it is still under fire and wishes to keep moving to cover despite your insistance that it remain exposed. This is correct behavior and will not be changed. It also is 100% in keeping with the behavior of other units.

Myth 2 - "[the TacAI gives] orders against our will which will make the punishment last for 12-15 turns - in ideal conditions"

Fact - as for the orders being "against [player] will"... see above. As for the rate of recovery, this depends on the situation and Global Morale (see below). For example, I just saw an Exhausted HMG recover to Ready in 4 Turns. So if I can see that happen, it is clear that the minimum 12-15 turns in "ideal conditions" turns is not factually based. So far I have yet to see 12-15 turn recovery times either in lab tests or in real games. To date I still have not heard how it is people are getting units ito such such a horrible state, so I can't comment on this further until I do.

OK, some more Facts for ya'll

Fact - if the unit takes fire and decides it would rather be somewhere else it plots an appropriate move to get there. HMGs are no different than any other unit which sees its Morale level shake a bit in terrain it is not comfortable being in. The order selected depends on the unit and the circumstances. If an HMG is stationary, it will use either Move or Sneak since those are the only two commands it can use. And yes, it will use Move provided its Morale is not shook up too much. But more importantly a HMG is perfectly capable of staying put if it is content with its current cover. So please don't tell me that all HMGs move whenever they are shot at (I have seen this overstatement made before). In a "for real" game I currently have a Green Maxim taking a pounding and all it is right now is Pinned and it hasn't budged in 3 turns. And I assure you this is not a one off fluke I am seeing

Fact - if the unit is using the Move command, and is shook up enough, it will change its order to Sneak. From my memory, and Tarqulene's tests, that borderline state is Alerted. Get worse than that and the Move order turns to Sneak. It will continue to Sneak until it feels safe enough to revert back to Move (i.e. Alerted). If the unit had been stationary, and therefore the current Sneak order was issued by the TacAI, it can be changed successfully to Move and the unit will NOT revert back to Sneak. And in any case, the Sneak order can be cancelled by the player and it will NOT be reissued unless it is still under fire that concerns it.

Fact - Global Morale affects, in general, the condition recovery rates for all units. This generally doesn't have an effect until Global Morale gets really trashed. This simulates a side losing the will to fight. It is entirely possible for BOTH sides to get into this state, meaning that the attacker's units can't attack and the defender's units can't defend to the same degree it could with higher Global Morale, even if they are personally unscratched and still have their HQs.

Fact - a unit that is not Panicked, but more than Alerted, will try to seek better cover if it doesn't like the cover it is in. This will of course depend on a host of variables, like Experience level, terrain, weather, etc. This can mean ignoring player orders, such as the Move order, direction, etc. Ignoring what the unit wants to do in such a condition is bad advice. Why? Because it is likely to result in...

Fact - a Panicked (or worse) unit will indeed be outside of your control. It can also use the Run command, something it ordinarily can not do. The downside is that it really gets itself worn out, and that means dropping into Sneak mode. It at least keeps the unit moving towards cover, even if it is Exhausted.

OK, did I miss anything?

From what I can tell, there is nothing wrong with the code at all.

Steve

[Tarquelne]

OK, did I miss anything?

Since you ask, it's at Alerted or worse, not worse-than-altered, that causes a HMG to use Sneak rather than Move. At least sometimes - it's what I noticed happening in every case, and I just double checked.

Questions, and speculation:

What would a real HMG crew do if under fire, in the open, and felt they needed to get to cover (ie - Hiding in place isn't, for whatever reason, an option)? I'm guessing they'd abandon the heavy stuff, scoot over to cover in a reasonably quick, non-exhausting manner (like a normal, non-HW squad) and then go get the abandoned equipment when it was reasonably safe to do so. Eh? If so, then the "problem" ("problem" = less than ideal simulation) might be that re-manning weapons isn't an option in CM (yet... we'll see what the next engine brings us).

A suggestion and... er, looks like more of the above:

Panicked HMG crews can Run... Would it be possible (and we all know that in this context that also means "practical", right? ) to allow Alerted or Cautious HW crews to Run? Still a highly fatiguing activity, but it might be a better option than slooowly Sneaking.

OTOH, I am perfectly willing to accept "You choices are Hide/stay-in-place or Sneak when your HWs are under fire." Assuming that I'm correct about the behavior of real HW crews (at least, in so far as Sneak and stay-in-place not being their only options) then this is a case of CM not corresponding perfectly with reality. But I don't see it as being worse than most other imperfects we know exist in the game.

[ November 24, 2002, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Battlefront.com]

SuperSulo,

OK, I posted without seeing your post, so now we are even

Oh and I just ran a simple test to see how long it can take for an exhausted HMG to get back to "Ready" and "Rested". I just used Run command for 3 turns and then Sneak for 7 turns. Then I just let it hide. It took 17 turns of hiding to get back to "Ready", 19 to get "Rested". So you see, it can take 25 mins, if you look at it from Redwolf pov.

Ah... well, that is different than what I have been seeing. The longer the unit abuses itself trying to move, the longer it takes to recover. If your unit does all of that... yeah, I don't think 17 minutes is all that "off" after 10 minutes of totally over the top physical expendature. Perhaps it could be tweaked down a little, but if it were... not by much at all.

Also, and I am not sure about this, I think HIDE might be worse than no orders at all in terms of resting up. I might be wrong about that though.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Tarqulene,

it's at Alerted or worse, not worse-than-altered, that causes a HMG to use Sneak rather than Move.

OK, I couldn't remember myself and I misread what you wrote. Therefore, my above statements are sligthly adjusted downwards where applicable.

What would a real HMG crew do if under fire, in the open, and felt they needed to get to cover (ie - Hiding in place isn't, for whatever reason, an option)? I'm guessing they'd abandon the heavy stuff, scoot over to cover in a reasonably quick, non-exhausting manner (like a normal, non-HW squad) and then go get the abandoned equipment when it was reasonably safe to do so.

In extreme circumstances, I am sure this would happen. Another thing would be attempting to dig in at their current position. This might be practical in some combat situations, but it is not something CM simulates. Plus, this would probably be more exhausting than moving. Just perhaps a better chance of survivial.

Panicked HMG crews can Run... Would it be possible (and we all know that in this context that also means "practical", right? ) to allow Alerted or Cautious HW crews to Run? Still a highly fatiguing activity, but it might be a better option than slooowly Sneaking.

The problem is that RUN is a great way to get your guys killed. In all the testing I did I didn't see any situation where my guys initially were using Sneak that I didn't want them to. After that I made a decision if I wanted them to take a chance where they were (i.e. cancelling the order), sneak to a closer destination, or simply let them go for another turn or two. So I for one would absolutely HATE having my guys Run in this state because it would be highly likely they would Panic. Nothing like getting shot in the back when you are already spooked

then this is a case of CM not corresponding perfectly with reality. But I don't see it as being worse than most other imperfects we know exist in the game.

I agree with you here. Things aren't modeled perfectly, but to answer Redwolf's question... yeah, I think things are modeled pretty well in relation to reality and everything else in the game held to that standard.

This brings me back to a point I have purposefully not brought up recently. And what is that?

Tactics

The best way to avoid a negative behavior is to avoid getting units into positions that invite such behavior. Redwolf made some comments earlier about his understanding of advancing heavy weapons during battles, and I posted a contrary position to that. Heavy weapons were not meant to advance during the battle, but if they were they were very careful to move only when it was "safe". The test conditions here prove the wisdom in this.

I think we can argue forever about how units should behave when things go wrong. But one thing we should not be arguing about is the necessity of making sure that your units do not get into such positions in the first place. Heavy, slow weapons mean poor mobility. Poor mobility means more limited options. Simple as that

Steve

[SuperSulo]

Ok... we seem to have reached the end of this, so I will just make these two suggestions:

1. Make the "sneak threshold" worse-than-alerted. It's even supported by the manual (Alerted = "not yet adversely affected by it"). Or maybe even worse-than-cautious. "Cautious units tend to take cover when fired upon". Since noone is firing at them, maybe they should be able to walk?

I think this suggestion is both fair and realistic, going by the only document I have available, the CMBB manual. The only problem I can see with this suggestion, is that it CAN ruin the entire infantry model! :eek: That is, it *could* turn SQUADS into the CMBO supermen we would rather not see again. With that said, I have NEVER witnessed this sneaking habit in normal infantry squads, only heavy teams, so I don't think there is a risk of that happening. Obviously, this would have to be playtested. Is it "possible" to have different "sneak thresholds" for squads and heavy teams? Or maybe there already are, in heavy teams disadvantage?

2. 17 minutes for a Fit unit, after 10 minutes "workout", to go from Exhausted to Rested *is* a long time, and you said you agreed on this. Maybe there could be an upper limit for that time, say 10 minutes to Rested, 8 to Ready? It's still a long time, but much more reasonable.

There, two suggestions that would take care of my "problem", that are both reasonable and realistic, I think you agree. The worse-than-cautious suggestion is the most (only) dangerous one, but I don't see that it should cause any problem, since a) There isn't a problem NOW with squads advancing, IF they get shot at, they will still hit the ground.

What do you say?

[Tarquelne]

1. Make the "sneak threshold" worse-than-alerted. It's even supported by the manual (Alerted = "not yet adversely affected by it").

Or change the manual.

It does look like the HMGs may be treated more harshly than squads - a squad can Advance while Shaken, for example. Oh well, now that the game-mechanism seems to have been Pinned we can go to the

argue forever about how units should behave when things go wrong

part of the discussion and focus on realism tweaks, if necessary. Maybe the current system is as good as CMBB can get, practically speaking, maybe not. Maybe we can talk about Running HMGs again. I'll gratefully leave that to the HW grogs - I just do what my Sgt. tells me.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Fact - as for the orders being "against [player] will"... see above. As for the rate of recovery, this depends on the situation and Global Morale (see below). For example, I just saw an Exhausted HMG recover to Ready in 4 Turns. So if I can see that happen, it is clear that the minimum 12-15 turns in "ideal conditions" turns is not factually based. So far I have yet to see 12-15 turn recovery times either in lab tests or in real games. To date I still have not heard how it is people are getting units ito such such a horrible state, so I can't comment on this further until I do.

I must be confused gain. When I open the last savegame by SuperSulu the one HMG that gets into the exhaustion loop gets from "tiring" to "Ready" in turn 15. And when I open the savegame the conditions are perfect weather and perfect ground and 100% global morale and the incoming fire is minimal.

The 1.01 patch in fact made a step in the right direction in that it is now more likely that a "stop" order is obeyed. But overall, I think you are looking too much at the details and not at the end result. All factors combined, there is still a distortion in the relationship of punishment you give to the player when he gets various different units under a certain amount of firepower. The punishment for the HMG is way out of line compared to the punishment for other units. It is not a coherent design, and the reason is not a single one of the supression rate, of the exhaustion rate or of the command overwrite rate, but a combination thereof.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

2. 17 minutes for a Fit unit, after 10 minutes "workout", to go from Exhausted to Rested *is* a long time, and you said you agreed on this. Maybe there could be an upper limit for that time, say 10 minutes to Rested, 8 to Ready? It's still a long time, but much more reasonable.

Before Steve jumps on me for this - this is not quite correct.

For your savegames, it took (in my run) 15 turns (to turn 16) to get the HMG from "tiring" to "ready". These 15 turns include the turns that the units spend to get exhausted in first place, the enforced sneaking turns until it reaches the woods, if you change the sneak to move everytime your can.

But, while it does not take 15 turns to recover from exhaustion, in effect the unit was 15 turns not "ready" after one single turn of incoming firepower 17 with no casualties. This is by far not in line with what other CMBB units do in the same situation.