A little too well hidden?

[JaegerMeister]

Is anyone else having a problem with the complete inability of your troops to spot enemy units laying in wait (whether hiding or not). I'm all for ambushes etc, but i am getting very frustrated with getting slaughtered at point blank range by enemy units that my troops should surely have seen.

In one battle i'm playing at present i stopped a full platoon in a small wood, at the edge, rested them for two full turns, ready to advance over the next 30 metres of clear terrain into a small clump of pine trees, they all had clear LOS to those trees. I also had 3 panzers sitting there with clear LOS providing cover, should it be needed.However when i then went to advance two squads into that pine, i suddenly had a HMG and two russian infantry squads open up on me from their at about 5-10 metres, decimating them. How the hell could no one have spotted/heard them in the two minutes those 30+ troops, hq and 3 tanks had sat there 30metres away? A similar thing has happened where the enemy have 'popped-up' in just scattered tree cover. Very frustrating. Have i literally got to sacrifice a half squad everytime by moving them right into that killzone to get the enemy to appear?

This is all on extreme fog of war by the way, is that the problem?

Recon seems to have suddenly become irrelevant as my troops/AC's cant spot men right under their nose until its too late.

All recon tips welcome! (and i count myself as very tactically adept normally!)

[TSword]

Jaegermeister,

During the next Summer do a trip into the countryside and check it out yourself. Standing 30 m in front of a forest or wood what can you see going on in there, do you think you are able to see somebody hiding near the edge ?

My observation with European woods is that the Forest or Wood borders are usually plastered with thick brush almost like bocage and i can usually not see anything inside it even when standing 15 m in front.

So in conclusion a platoon may very well hide in a patch of wood and not being spotted until someone virtually steps on them. This changes considerable in autumn and winter where trees loose their foliage.

The germans again and again were surprised how the russians were able to conceal whole battalions in their approaches and then popping up some meters in front seemingly out of nowhere.

If anything, then spotting/tracking in CM is still much to easy IMHO.

Reading Source suggestion: M. Nipe's Books give excellent low level inside views of the fighting in russia.

Greets

Daniel

[Tankist]

Well,

if you suspect enemies at a certain spot (obviously you did in this case), do some recon by fire.

Just order one squad and maybe tank mgs to area fire the patch of pine trees for one turn.

Either the enemy units will return fire, in which case your other units will open up, or they get decimated/shaken (and possibly run) by the area fire.

If the area with possible threats is too large to area fire it, well, then indeed use a screening force of half squads.

Tankist

[MasterGoodale]

Both of the above posts are right, but also the extreme FOW I'm sure makes it harder. I use Full FOW and that doesn't happen quite like you described. If I suspect enemy in an area and have small mortars I area fire for one round just to teach them who wears the pants in the forest.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by JaegerMeister:

All recon tips welcome! (and i count myself as very tactically adept normally!)

Recon by fire?

recon by Arty?

snipers as recon?

use tank hunter teams as recon?

half squads as recon?

as mentioned above use an SP or tank to pump a few HE rounds into the suspected area. in all the games I have played I have never run out of HE in tanks so why not "waste" a minutes worth of rounds to recon by fire the area you suspect?

-tom w

[ParaBellum]

When we were trained setting up camouflaged positions in the army we would usually go in front of them 20-30 m and see if we could spot anything.

If done right you wouldn't notice a 2-man foxhole until you literally stepped onto it.

Seems quite realistic in CMBB.

As already mentioned use half-squads for recon, backed up by an overwatch element, that should limit losses due to stumbling into ambushes.

[Elmo]

In a recent QB I found an enemy tank the hard way that was "hiding" in open ground. IIRC in another part of the same battle my sharpshooter missed seeing another tank hiding in the open until it fired. Neither tank was hull down. I agree with Jaegermeister at least as far as armor hiding in the open is concerned.

[Ben Galanti]

Area Fire!

The key to advancing in CMBB. Don't be shy with it.

MGs and Platoons with lots of rifles work well (though arty and direct fire HE are the best). Often, units will get spooked and move, then get cut down by everyone in sight (a little bit over done, but there's nothing that can be done about it until we get relative spotting). Even if you don't spot anyone until you're close, they'll have their heads down. Send in some SMGs and you're good to go...

If you get careless like I did last night in a QB against the AI, you're in trouble. I didn't area fire a patch of woods. I sent in three tank hunter teams, all 3 teams (6 guys total) were cut down in one burst from the SMG squad hidden in the woods :eek:

Ben

[JaegerMeister]

Hmmm....meakly shuts the door on his way out!

But seriously, i still would have thought with that size/array of force sitting there for two turns would have got an inkling? I had even bypassed said pine strip with other forces several turns before to engage forces further back on the map. It would seem i have to literally 'hose down' every cluster of trees (even scattered) before considering entering (plus i would potentially have given away my position in doing so) and ammo is quite often in short supply. Doesn't seem very practical on a map that may have loads of tree clusters/cover.

But i do agree with what you say about Soviet camo techniques.

Has anyone also tried the 'cemetery hill' scenario as Germans?...my force seemed blind to any red positions, no matter how cautiously i proceeded, even to the point of boring my soldiers to death with in-action. It seems as if my forces just will not spot enemy troops/AT guns etc unless they open fire...that defeats the idea of me using recon/half squads to go look see and determine positions before committing!

[Fetchez la Vache]

I've only really had trouble when the enemy are hiding in buildings. Then I find about the only way to make sure that my advancing troops won't get badly ambushed is to demolish the building in question with HE. HMG suppressive fire seems to have very little effect on buildings in terms of supression for me. Hmmm, should do a test I guess.

So normally it's a case of sending some heroic half-squad or TH team sauntering over to take a look-see. Poor sods...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Fetchez la Vache:

I've only really had trouble when the enemy are hiding in buildings. Then I find about the only way to make sure that my advancing troops won't get badly ambushed is to demolish the building in question with HE.

Sounds like a good time to have a tank/AG/SPA with a gun >100mm and plenty of ammo. A couple of rounds in the right place will either bring it down or pursuade any occupants that it's time to be moving on.

Michael

[Nidan1]

Anyone remember that scene from "Platoon" when Charlie Sheen was walking point, and never saw the bunker that was directly in front of him.?

Enough said.

[Maxx]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

Anyone remember that scene from "Platoon" when Charlie Sheen was walking point, and never saw the bunker that was directly in front of him.?

Enough said.

Never put Charlie Sheen on point. Don Knotts would have been my first choice.

[demoss]

in all the games I have played I have never run out of HE in tanks

You're not trying hard enough. I've run several tanks out of HE in the second scenario of Dergatschi Roadblock. Of course, it may be because when I don't have anything better to do with them, I'm reducing likely-looking buildings to rubble....

[CRSutton]

Gotta think out of the box. You want spotting to be like it was in CMBO but it is not and will not be in this game. However, all quirks aside, CMBB reflects reality much more than CMBO. Not that I don't feel your pain. I am losing a lot of scenairos as the attacker. But, and a big but, I am relearning my tactics and getting better with each try.

I agree that assault guns and infantry support vehicles with 100+mm guns are excellent for drawing out the enemy. Area fire has it role here.

Also, where I found that 30 turns on a 1000 pt QB attack was sufficient-I generally sent it for about 34 turns as the attacker needs more time to ferret out the enemy. This of course depends on terrain. I still have not figured out how to attack in relatively open terrain-perhaps more points for the attacker.

Attacking is much harder now and that really is the way i should be.

[Elmo]

Where are all you area fire advocates getting all your ammo?! In a medium sized 30 turn scenario I'm lucky not to run out of ammo just firing at confirmed targets, never mind spraying the whole map every minute. Is anyone thinking that is how an attack really developed, especailly regarding the open ground areas?

In my admittedly limited playing experience so far (played four or five scenarios)I can't recall a single case where one of my units has ever spotted a hidden unit that didn't move or fire first. If others have the same experience then that strikes me as unrealistic.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by JaegerMeister:

[snips]But seriously, i still would have thought with that size/array of force sitting there for two turns would have got an inkling?

How?

From my TA days, I remember one hasty ambush where we bounced our opponents from a range of about 5 metres. Our total camouflage preparations were our normal personal cam plus five minutes with local foliage and face veils. In woodland, under surprising light cover like a thin screen of ferns, as long as you don't belch, fart or sneeze, you can lie still within spitting distance of other people for as long as you like.

Another time myself and one other rifleman held up a platoon on a convex slope covered in standing wheat for about half an hour. Alternately shooting and monkey-running back, we got in dozens of shots at them, at ranges of 15-25 metres, and they afterwards said we would probably have shot the lot of them. Nobody in the entire platoon ever saw either of us.

Originally posted by JaegerMeister:

[snips]

It seems as if my forces just will not spot enemy troops/AT guns etc unless they open fire...that defeats the idea of me using recon/half squads to go look see and determine positions before committing!

The rule of thumb we used was "You won't see the enemy until he opens fire, and often not even then".

All the best,

John.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Elmo:

Where are all you area fire advocates getting all your ammo?! In a medium sized 30 turn scenario I'm lucky not to run out of ammo just firing at confirmed targets, never mind spraying the whole map every minute. Is anyone thinking that is how an attack really developed, especailly regarding the open ground areas?

Do you think this wasn't how attacks developed? Ever heard of "reconaissance by fire" or "prophylactic fire"?

I must say, though, I'd like to see it possible to re-distribute and re-supply ammunition for infantry at least. An ammo re-distribution, including taking ammo from friendly dead and wounded, has been a standard part of British infantry battle-drills at the end of every section attack since I-don't-know-when, and I doubt that other armies just left the ammo just lying around. Ammo resupply would also give some point to all those light armoured vehicles like SPWs and carriers that are otherwise little more than ATR targets.

Then again, I'd really like to be able to plan and shoot a proper creeping barrage...

Originally posted by Elmo:

If others have the same experience then that strikes me as unrealistic.

How many historical examples can you point to of attacking troops spotting a static enemy before they opened fire?

All the best,

John.

[Michael Emrys]

All this seems to bring us back to the 3:1 rule. In order to absorb the casualties taken in just finding out where the enemy is and also have a reserve of fresh troops to carry forward the attack, you need to have a fair surplus in hand. Sometimes with a defender at a disadvantage due to terrain or something else, the attacker can get away with a slimmer margin than that. But CMBO was so slanted in favor of the attacker that it gave a false impression of how easy it was.

My opinion, anyway.

Michael

[Elmo]

Hi John

Thanks for the reply. Yes I've heard of recon by fire, although not prophlaytic fire. Are you saying either one involves shooting up the countryside including open terrain over the entire time of an advance? That sounded to me like somebodys answer to the original observation that started this thread. There certainly is a time and place for area fire, but IMO it shouldn't be the only method of spotting a hidden enemy.

I agree that men/guns/vehicles hidden in good cover should usually go unnoticed until they fire and, as you say, possibly after they fire. I don't think it is realistic to say the same for vehicles in open terrain. For example in one of my games I didn't see a vehicle sitting 180m away on a forward slope even with several units, not under fire, having a LOS to that area for a few minutes. Should I have been guaranteed a spotting, no. My question is, was there _any_ chance? If not then I see that as a problem with the game.

I'm not much of a bookworm so I can't quote chapter and verse of historical examples of covered troops being spotted. However I hope you're not saying it never happended? I am saying from my limited experience with the game that it has _never_happened_ and if it can't then that is unrealistic.

Elmo

[Terence]

Originally posted by Elmo:

However I hope you're not saying it never happended? I am saying from my limited experience with the game that it has _never_happened_ and if it can't then that is unrealistic.

I think that the consensus so far is that a determined infantry defender in good cover with time to prepare a position is nearly impossible to see if he lies doggo and doesn't open fire.

I guess the game tends to give the defenders the benefit of the doubt, and make them pretty tough to spot when they are lie-in-wait mode.

I guess veterans or regular troops would be much less likely to open fire at long range when in ambush, but greens or conscripts might have a better chance of blowing the ambush early.

The tank think is strange though. An immoblie, or dug in tank might be able to hide in scattered trees if it had been camoflaged, but a moving, active one? That seems unlikely....

[Elmo]

Terence

In my case I don't think the enemy tanks were moving. I was playing the AI and can't verify it but they appeared to be hiding and thus not moving. Not sure about dug-in although it could be.

I think Battlefront could clear this up easily, for me anyway, by commenting on whether it is possible to spot hidden units, particularly vehicles in the open, that don't move or fire if EFOW is turned on?

Elmo

[Ben Galanti]

I'll agree that vehicle spotting seems a little tough in open terrain. In a PBEM I'm playing, I didn't spot a truck on a road at 100m until it started moving. I haven't watched for this specifically, but I did think that odd at the time. I know there is an inital bonus for vehicles if they haven't moved since the beginning of the scenario (representing prepared positions) but it may be a bit over done for vehicles in the open and on roads and what not. Maybe it should only be brush and light trees?

I don't hose every inch of open ground, but likely tree lines and the such always get the royal treatment... Plenty of support weapons alwyas help this. It may slow down your attack to keep these guys with you, but it seems to be worth it.

Ben

[Stalin's Organ]

Speaking of TA days - I was a baggy (private) in hte recon platon of hte local infantry Bn for a while & as point man I regularly got shot by ppl 5-20m away!! And yes I was bloody cautious!!

I remember in basic training our platoon (of trainees, not the recon pln) was put in front of an empty paddock and told to spot the men hiding in it. This was not a flat paddock - it had a few little ridges and things - 6-8" high (15-20cm), clumped grass, a few isolated bushes, etc.

We didn't spot any of them.

Then they opened fore with a few single shots.

WE still didn't spot them!

Then they stood up - THEN we saw them, and they were nowhere near the bushes!!

Mind you they were fully camed up in gillie suits, but then it wa only grass they were hiding in!!

I remmber ambushing a M113 one day - I was extreme flanker on a long ridge & was hiding in an old trench (it was the usual exercise area) - it'd mostly filled in so was more like a shallow crater - perhaps a foot deep & 6 feet in diameter but with no foliage to speak of in it.

So htere I was hiding behind the tussock at he edge, with a bit of face paint and my black M-16 with a bright yellow blank fire attachment and this M-113 pulls up about 5 m in front of me, side on, with a full complement of regular infantry sitting on top.

I carefully let 2 magazines go on full auto into the careless idiots!!

At that range I'd guess even 5.56 rounds will go through aluminium armour.

I reckon I got everyone on top, the driver (it was his side facing me and I knew where he was positioned so he got a few rounds through the armour!) and maybe a few ppl inside as well.

War is hell!

[Determinant]

One of the abiding themes in battle histories since the invention of smokeless powder (in British Army terms since the Boer Wars at the turn of the 19/20th centuries) is that of absolute and utter confusion in the attack.

It is very difficult to identify targets on the battlefield. Even taking a proper look (picking your head up off the ground to take a look) is likely to get it shot off.

Extreme FOW is the only way to go. It makes life extremely hard - but then it's just like real life. I laughed at John's stories - in British battle drills if the commander hasn't seen a target to give a fire control order onto he will bellow out to his troops: 'Has anyone seen the enemy?' Pause of two-three and everyone else will bellow back: 'Not Seen!' My top tip: shout the words to yourself as you play for that fully immersive effect.