Russian AT weapons?

[Auggy]

I was wondering what types of Anti-tanks weapons the ruskies will have. Besides the magnetic mines and close assualt stuff and AT rifles will they have any HEAT weapons? Lend lease zooks? Just wondering about this.

[zukkov]

well, i hear that someone named molatov serves coctails during happy hour... lots of atr's, but i don't think the russkies had any zooks. i believe they did make some special rounds for the at guns, tanks, etc., but i don't know how good they were. should be interesting to see how the russkies deal with german armor... and vice versa for that matter.

[Guest Mike]

I don't think they're getting Bazooka's, or even captured PzFaust's.

But they will get absolute bucket loads of 14.5mm ATR's with more ammo than you can use in a life time!!

[Gud]

...not to mention such sweeties as RPG-43 heavy AT grenade, or just plain old satchel charge.

My real qustion is: will Finns have broomsticks/shovels/screwdeivers as AT-Weapons...

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by zukkov:

...i don't think the russkies had any zooks.

The Soviets received several thousand bazookas as Lend-Lease.

Michael

[Grisha]

Don't think the Soviets had any type of magnetic mines that were used by the rifle forces - Squad Leader aside. One thing to think about are 45mm AT guns. The rifle forces used these as heavy weapon infantry support. They had decent HE capability, and at close range the HVAP rounds did good work. One way to think of them wrt Soviet rifle forces is the way most players in CMBO have a spotter for 81/82mm mortars.

[Michael Dorosh]

Can someone post some hard sources on the availability of US bazookas and lack of magnetic mines for us? I understand that the German zimmerit system was largely a waste since the Soviets neglected to follow through and use magnetic mines as the Germans anticipated. Is there a definitive answer for this - and why did SL bite the bullet on this so badly?

How were the US bazookas distributed? Guards units only? Everyone? Was it a platoon support weapon, or were they held at company or battalion HQ as special tank-hunter weapons? Did the Soviets use them for anti-personnel work?

[Guest Mike]

Yes the Russians received a lot of Bazookas, but I have NEVER seen any reference to them ever being used by them, anywhere, any time.

Not that that makes an autoritative reference tho, but to me it's suggestive that they simply didn't use them for some unknown reason.

Not sure about Mag mines tho - I'd have to check my Fact Files book.....

[Tarquelne]

Oruzhie krysy?

[Michael Dorosh]

M. Hofbaeur's site mentions that the Reds didn't like the bazooka much - but some sources say that the panzerschreck and panzerfaust were used in some numbers.

Was the RPG-1 a captured panzerfaust, a Soviet built copy of a panzerfaust, or both?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Was the RPG-1 a captured panzerfaust, a Soviet built copy of a panzerfaust, or both?

Copy, I think. Didn't appear until just after the war, right?

As for the bazookas, all I know is that they got them. Never heard anything as yet concerning usage.

Michael

[Guest Mike]

Although the russian military was reportedly not very enthusiastic about the lend-lease Bazookas which they had received in little numbers in 1943, they took a liking to the bigger Panzerschreck and the late-war Panzerfaust types. The russians usually referred to both the Panzerfaust and the Panzerschreck simply as "Fausts". The following information is to be taken with care as this issue is still rather sketchy. Apparently, captured german Panzerfaust weapons supposedly were used under the designation RPG-1; the captured german factories kept producing Panzerfausts for the soviets even after the war. Immediately after the war the russians further developed the Panzerfaust 150 design into the RPG-2. This eventually lead to the better known RPG-3 series.

From http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust4.htm

[ August 20, 2002, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mike:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Although the russian military was reportedly not very enthusiastic about the lend-lease Bazookas which they had received in little numbers in 1943, they took a liking to the bigger Panzerschreck and the late-war Panzerfaust types. The russians usually referred to both the Panzerfaust and the Panzerschreck simply as "Fausts". The following information is to be taken with care as this issue is still rather sketchy. Apparently, captured german Panzerfaust weapons supposedly were used under the designation RPG-1; the captured german factories kept producing Panzerfausts for the soviets even after the war. Immediately after the war the russians further developed the Panzerfaust 150 design into the RPG-2. This eventually lead to the better known RPG-3 series.

From http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust4.htm</font>

[Guest Mike]

I don't think there's any conflict between that site and anything that says the Russians kept them in production during the war - the article is silent on that point.

One other statistic fromthat site:

German tank kills on the Eastern Front in the 1st 4 months of 1944:

12541 total

8130 where cause was known, of which:

262 by faust

88 by shrek

67 by Hafthohlladung (magnetic hand mine)

22 by hand grenade

78 by tellermine

No doubt some of the 4411 wher ethe cause was unknown were from infantry weapons too, where there was no report for some reason, but it puts things into a little perspective!

[Auggy]

So i'm wondering how the russians will cope without an Inf AT team? Every nation has them in CMBO. Should be a slight disadvatage i think. 14.5 Atr's are nice when dealing with light armour but how well will those fair against tigers? Anyone know ROF of ATR's? I'm guessing they had a pretty nice recoil.

P.s. Why didn't the russians like zooks anyway? Better than clos assaulting with a well placed moltov. Just more q's i know.

[ August 20, 2002, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Sir Augustus ]

[Guest Mike]

The ROF of an ATR is something like 10-12 rpm in CMBB - they fire a lot.

They can't do much to a Tiger of any persuasion, but can penetrate the flank of a Panther or Mk 4 at 100m, and are reasonably useful agaisnt light armour out to 300 or maybe 500m (viz other Inf AT effective ranges vs anything-at-all of 100m or so based on chances to actually hit rathe than penetrate) so they aren't quite useless even in teh late war.

A lot (most) of their penetrations will cause no damage, but they will scare the be-jezzus out of a lot of German players, and they are cheap, can be fired from inside buildings, and are harder to spot than recoil-less weapons.

Also there is a 2-man infantry AT team in the Russian army armed with molotov cocktails and the like - similarly in the German army.

[ August 20, 2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

[Mattias]

Ultra quick before work:

Does Schürtzen stop ATR rounds effectively in CMBB?

M.

[Guest Mike]

Ultra quick at work & waiting to go home:

Dunno!

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by Mattias:

Ultra quick before work:

Does Schürtzen stop ATR rounds effectively in CMBB?

M.

I hope so!

[ASL Veteran]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Can someone post some hard sources on the availability of US bazookas and lack of magnetic mines for us? I understand that the German zimmerit system was largely a waste since the Soviets neglected to follow through and use magnetic mines as the Germans anticipated. Is there a definitive answer for this - and why did SL bite the bullet on this so badly?

The Soviets do not have magnetic mines in ASL. Only the Germans have them. I do seem to recall that SL had something about them, but if so they were later dropped.

[Commissar]

The Red Army received 8500 bazookas from the US and 1000 PIATs and 3200 Boys AT rifles from GB , according to The Red Army Handbook. The Soviets did develop their own rocket AT weapons but too late to be used in the war. Some other quotes from The Red Army Handbook:

The Red Army did not follow the course of most other major armies in Europe which deployed various forms of rocket grenade launchers by 1942-3. The Red Army had been one of the first developers of rocket weapons as early as 1931 but these proved ineffective against armour since they relied on a high-explosive blast warhead rather than a shaped-charge warhead and their development had halted before the outbreak of the war.

The Soviets tended to rely more on their tanks or tank destroyers to handle German armour and I believe Loza mentions in one of his books that Red Army troops captured plenty of panzerfausts in their drive to kick the Germans out of Russia and the march on Germany. Panzerfausts appear to be just as effective in taking out German armor as they were in taking out Soviet armour. There is also mention of a mortar which fired a ball shaped vial of jellied gasoline, with a range of 250m. ROF was 8/minute but was neither accurate nor effective against tanks. It was mainly used in 1941 and 1942 but was discontinued since it really wasn't effective.

It would seem that the Reds appreciated the SPAM, the pork shoulder of victory, more than they did the bazookas or PIATs since the use of either of these weapons was definitely not wide-spread.

[ August 21, 2002, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Commissar ]

[Michael Emrys]

The Red Army had several shaped-charge anti-armor grenades. These were usually stabilized by a long ribbon that unfurled after the grenade was tossed to insure that it struck at the proper attitude. I think that the most common usage was to toss it in a high, arcing trajectory so that it came down on the rear deck. That's where the armor was likely to be thinnest and at least a mobility kill could be achieved along with the possibility of a fire.

I think the reason the Sovs didn't like the bazooka was that it lacked penetration compared to other similar weapons. The American GIs disliked it for the same reason. I don't know about the PIAT; didn't it have slightly better penetration compared to the bazooka?

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by ASL Veteran:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Can someone post some hard sources on the availability of US bazookas and lack of magnetic mines for us? I understand that the German zimmerit system was largely a waste since the Soviets neglected to follow through and use magnetic mines as the Germans anticipated. Is there a definitive answer for this - and why did SL bite the bullet on this so badly?

The Soviets do not have magnetic mines in ASL. Only the Germans have them. I do seem to recall that SL had something about them, but if so they were later dropped.</font>

[CaptPigglesbeThe3rd]

Don't underestimate the crappy Russian Anti-Tank

rifle.I've seen Panzer IV's immoblized left right

and centre in ASL.If its anything like that it will be a royal pain in the ass

PS...Are there any Finns in CMBB?

This game has been missing Finnish Ski Troops!

[ August 21, 2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: CaptPigglesbeThe3rd ]

[Sergei]

Sorry, CaptPigglesbeThe3rd - the game will concentrate on ground warfare. So no naval action, no fins.

Yes, Finns (Finnish, not Finish!) as well as Italian, Romanian, Hungarian etc. troops are included. And no, ski troops won't be in. Neither are reindeers, those grey horses with funny heads.