Things that make you go "hmmm.........."

[Pantherbait]

Been trying the Jagaermeister tutorial, about six times now.

The JS tanks sure seem a bit to brittle; 800 meter frontal, hull down(the JS are) shots from Panthers taking them out, first shot, while the JS exact same shot on the Panthers does nothing.

I've increased the JS crews levels, etc., same thing.

Happened over and over, good cover or not, good hull down or not, etc.

Great game, but the JS's were quite stout, gun and armor-wise, so this is strange.

[CombinedArms]

I've gotten my clock cleaned in this one, too, by trying to go head to head with the German armor. Seems like the Russians' best strategy is to work their way into the village behind the cover of the forest, then hide behind buildings, etc. Hmmmm...it's beginning to sound like fighting with Shermans.

But I thought the IS-2 was designed to go head to head with the German big cats. If they can't do that and survive, even with a big numerical advantage in AFVs, I sorta wonder, why don't they work any better at their assigned task?

[MikeyD]

I've seen IS-2 tanks close-range hull front hits from Tiger Is without damage and I believe the Panther gun is more-or-less(?) equivalent to the Tiger's 88 for penetration.

I'd bet you're having the same trouble as seen in the Yelina Stare demo. When your tank's hull-down the overall hit probability drops BUT every round that does hit has a greater probability of finding a turret weak spot. In an odd twist of reverse psychology you might want to take your tanks OUT of hull-down position. Then the Panther hits will have a greater chance of bouncing off the bow armor instead of penetrating the turret.

[edited] Ooops! I just noticed you said it happened hull-down or not, so there goes my theory. The thing with CMBB, these guys don't 'estimate' armor values, they plug in the real numbers at real angles and real round penetration curves. Unless we can find a fault with their math or their references we're just going to have to accept that unexpected results are actually true results.

[ October 16, 2002, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[MikeyD]

Another thought. 'Combined Arms' above says he thought the IS-2 was designed to go head-to-head with the big cats. Well, there could be some debate on that. If the IS-2 was designed to be a dedicated cat killer they would've selected their more powerful 100mm anti-tank gun (later to go into the T54?) instead of the 122mm gun. IS-2 was designed to be survivable on the battlefield but the main task of the big gun was infantry support with a secondary cat-killing capability.

[Pantherbait]

Ok, thanks guys. Actually, from all I've read, the JS's *were* specifically built to counter upgrades in German armor, but who knows I guess.

Still seems a bit flaky, but no big deal.

[Amedeo]

In fact the IS-2 was designed as an heavy breakthrough tank i.e. a tank whose main goal was to make gaps in German defences to let exploitation groups to go through. Thus its main adversaries were infatry based, hence the decision to arm it with the powerful 122mm gun and to make it frontally immone to the 7,5cm PaK that was the standard AT weapon of german infantry units late in the war.

The 122mm gun turned also to be a great AT weapon and the front hull of late wersions was immune even to point blank hits from the dreadful 88L71, but this doesn't mean that the IS was conceived as a "Tiger hunter".

The turret front was basically defeatable at all practcal combat ranges by the guns mounted on the big cats, thus it's not a very good idea to start an head to head firefight with Tigers and Panthers at close-medium range, simply because their higher ROF will usually allow them to pierce through your turret before you can score an hit.

In fact German reports stated that the IS accepted frontal duels with Tigers only at long range 2000m and more and only when numerical superiority was present.

Regards,

Amedeo

[Andrew H.]

Those results seem pretty historical to me. The JS-2 only has 100mm of armor in its turret; hit straight on, the Panther should be able to penetrate this out to 1500 meters or so.

The hull front is a different issue, of course, because of the slope, but battlefront.ru has a report of a JS-2 being knocked out and burning from a Tiger I hit on the "lower frontal plate" at 1000-1100 meters. There's another report of a Tiger penetrating from the front at 400 meters, and a report of Tiger shells not penetrating the nose at the range of 1000-1500 meters.

Panther's gun has better penetration than the Tiger's so the Panther should do even better.

According to Achtung Panzer, at a 30 degree angle, Panther penetrates 111 mm @ 1000 meters and 99 @ 1500; Tiger does 100 mm @ 1000 meters and 91 mm @ 1500.

[Pvt. Ryan]

In my experience with the JS-2 so far, it seem s the JS-2 gets off a first shot (usually hull down on defense), but the Panther quickly swings its turret and gets 2 or 3 penetrations on the JS-2 before it can reload. The JS-2 either bails or is shocked and almost never gets off a second shot.

[JRRRT]

I think that part of what is reflected in the perceived brittleness of Soviet tanks may be the actual exchange rates which occurred during the war, if that has been factored in. Soviet tanks were better or equal to German, but crew training and performance were extremely poor , especially early on. This led to exchange ratios unfavorable to the Reds, even with superior equipment. German vets have told me that few Soviets could drive well, and that they always tended to go anywhere by the easiest rout. They frequently got up on the skyline, and the tanks were very noisy. Gun crews were slow, and optics poor. Couple that with few radios, poor command and control and you lose lots of tanks, even if very good. Also, the KV, while difficult to kill, was easy to spot due to the high sillouhette and the slab-sided turret was a good impact site.

[TSword]

A German report (Listed in Jentz's Tankunits book) stated that JS-2s usually avoided the fight with Tigers other then shooting from well camoflaged positions and usually searched for cover after the first shot...., may be born out of experience...

Btw. about the same is noted by a russian tankregiment commander in saying "They (the JS-2) usually fired one shot (vs. Tigers), everything else was about ruled out."

Greets

Daniel

[Silvio Manuel]

It kinda goes w/o saying, but only use a few such tanks in frontal-attack/overwatch mode, popping them in and out of LOS to squeeze in single shots so your re-load time isn't such a liability; I haven't use Shoot-and-Scoot yet but I'm sure that's the ideal command. Meanwhile, your other section of tanks heads around on a flanking mission, seeking to get it's 122mm AP shells more acquainted w/ the Panther's tantalizing side armor.

[Da Beginna]

I think the IS series had terrific tanks. The draw back of them and the post-war tanks was the gun depretiation (right word?) of only 3 degrees. So the hull-down thing was a problem...

Hopeful this will be modelled in latter CM parts...

[MikeyD]

Yes, you are right. Shoot-and-Scoot is the perfect command, tailor made for low ROF tanks like the IS-2.

[Pantherbait]

Thanks guys. Fwiw, I've tried shoot and scoot, flanking, etc.

Doesn't matter; the Panthers hammer them every time; even using shoot and scoot, the Panthers smack them before the JS's even shoot many times. It's as was said above; like fighting with Shermans, and the JS wasn't no Sherman

Sure, assuming the Panther's rof is greater, still, a smack from a JS should have the same affect as the exact same smack from the Panther does to the JS I would think; both had good guns, etc.

Also, this is in July 1944, with modified, improved crews(the scenario default is green). Besides the game ratings themselves being raised as above, the Russians knew what they were doing by then.

Anyway, I guess it's just the way it is. Still makes me go "hmmm....." though

Great game though irregardless

[ October 16, 2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Pantherbait ]

[Silvio Manuel]

The point is that you only want to get that 1st shot off before retreating behind cover, try to avoid letting the Panthers get return fire at all. Use smoke if you have it, preferably off-map spotters, but tank smoke shells work wonder to accurately cover small gaps. I don't think any Soviet tank had "stand toe-to-toe w/ Big Cats" in its doctrine, and few Allied, offhandedly perhaps the Jackson/Pershing/Fireflies might do so.

If you can send some IS-2's on flanking missions, carefully using cover, while keeping the enemies mind on the threat to the front from tanks that fire one shot and then pull back into cover, you should be alright. Exploit the Panther's slow turret (if they are all slow? dunno if A or D and such models were faster) by firing from a wide angle (your overwatch tanks firing in a rough semi-circle)...the same kind of tactic an early T-34 would use to attack the 80mm armored StuG's in 1942.

I'm not familiar w/ Jaegermeister, so hopefully this does have some relevance.

[ October 16, 2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[Abbott]

Jagaermeister__________________+++Spoiler+++

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I was able to destroy all of the Tigers and all but one of the Panthers in that scenario, when played from the Russian side. Using the hill, shoot&scoot command and lots of attrition. I had played the battle as the Germans once before, so had a bit of experience with it.

[Pantherbait]

Thanks, I'll keep working on it. They haven't been spread a whole lot,(20-30 meters or so, so far), so I'll try that out.

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

The point is that you only want to get that 1st shot off before retreating behind cover, try to avoid letting the Panthers get return fire at all. Use smoke if you have it, preferably off-map spotters, but tank smoke shells work wonder to accurately cover small gaps. I don't think any Soviet tank had "stand toe-to-toe w/ Big Cats" in its doctrine, and few Allied, offhandedly perhaps the Jackson/Pershing/Fireflies might do so.

If you can send some IS-2's on flanking missions, carefully using cover, while keeping the enemies mind on the threat to the front from tanks that fire one shot and then pull back into cover, you should be alright. Exploit the Panther's slow turret (if they are all slow? dunno if A or D and such models were faster) by firing from a wide angle (your overwatch tanks firing in a rough semi-circle)...the same kind of tactic an early T-34 would use to attack the 80mm armored StuG's in 1942.

I'm not familiar w/ Jaegermeister, so hopefully this does have some relevance.

[Tripwire6]

*** Spoiler ***

As I've said a few times now, Jaeger is a great scenario to play as the attacking Russians. Yes, the IS's seem very vulnerable to the German cats. I lost half my armor very early in the fight. I took two tanks around the left flank (from my perspective) and spread the remaining survivors out on the hill in the middle using shoot and scoot. These actually survived much longer this way. Considering the early disaster when I tried to slug it out, I still managed to take out the cats and get a minor victory.

One last thing... with the turns winding down, there was one remaining cat in the left edge of the town. I timed my shoot and scoot perfectly and got a 90m broadside shot... and missed! DOH! Luckily my infantry somehow took this one out from surrounding buildings.

[Silvio Manuel]

Pantherbait,

btw, your name is very fitting for this thread!

My comment of "Use smoke if you have it,

preferably off-map spotters, but tank smoke shells work

wonder to accurately cover small gaps."

refers to using smoke to assist your Maneuver element in not getting plastered as they move. You shouldn't need smoke for the stationery shoot'n'scooters.

SM

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Pantherbait:

Sure, assuming the Panther's rof is greater, still, a smack from a JS should have the same affect as the exact same smack from the Panther does to the JS I would think; both had good guns, etc.

The russian battlefield site notes that, after the first encounters between the Panther and the JS-2, the JS-2 could only penetrate the Panther's front at ranges of 600-700 meters; a Tiger 1 could be penetrated out to 1200 meters. In later '44, when Panther's armor became more brittle (due to manufacturing constraints and raw materials shortages), the JS-2 had much better penetration.

The slow ROF was recognized as a problem, but came as the result of (1) having a 122 mm gun to begin with; and (2) having two-part ammunition.

[Edited to clean up post]

[ October 16, 2002, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Hedges ]

[Pantherbait]

lol, yes, I thought about my name too Thanks re the smoke, yep, figured that.

Old time TOP2/PiTS player, so I'm really enjoying CMBB.

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

Pantherbait,

btw, your name is very fitting for this thread!

My comment of "Use smoke if you have it,

preferably off-map spotters, but tank smoke shells work

wonder to accurately cover small gaps."

refers to using smoke to assist your Maneuver element in not getting plastered as they move. You shouldn't need smoke for the stationery shoot'n'scooters.

SM

[Pantherbait]

Ok, thanks. I wonder how the frontal armor of the two machines compare......

Anyone ? I know other things come into play besides shear numbers, but would be interesting.

Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pantherbait:

Sure, assuming the Panther's rof is greater, still, a smack from a JS should have the same affect as the exact same smack from the Panther does to the JS I would think; both had good guns, etc.

The russian battlefield site notes that, after the first encounters between the Panther and the JS-2, the JS-2 could only penetrate the Panther's front at ranges of 600-700 meters; a Tiger 1 could be penetrated out to 1200 meters. In later '44, when Panther's armor became more brittle (due to manufacturing constraints and raw materials shortages), the JS-2 had much better penetration.

The slow ROF was recognized as a problem, but came as the result of (1) having a 122 mm gun to begin with; and (2) having two-part ammunition.

[Edited to clean up post]</font>

[Coffin 'Enry]

I have just come from playing the Jaegermeister scenario and now realise I have to work harder.

I had four JS2s lined up behind the ridge in the centre aginst one tiger on the far edge of the board (the Panthers were otherwise occupied). I set all four JS2s with Shoot and Scoot to pop-up, fire and back down behind the ridge again, then hit the button and watched with baited breath.

Result, three dead JS2s to the Tiger and no hits on the it. Three killed in one turn by one Tiger! I have got to be doing something wrong.

[Apache]

I'm just glad most everyone else is having problems playing as allies in this one. Thought it was just me. First few times I tried it resulted in 16 piles of smokin' tin on the field

I got a bit confused with the 'tutorial pages' too. I'm sure the left and right's were the wrong way round. It took almost a week to get my tanks to that left hill

[ October 16, 2002, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[rune]

Guys,

Also remember there are three version of the IS-2. The 1943 model, the 44 early and 44 models. The ones int he scenario are the earlys, and have less armour then the later versons 105mm compared to the 127mm in the later versions. There was a reason they uparmoured the tanks.

Rune