Knocking out 75mm AT Pillbox

[John Kettler]

Other Means,

Should further note that light flak employs tracer

in order to direct the stream of fire more effectively onto the maneuvering target. Naturally, this also serves to the reveal the position of the gun. Not that much of a problem against a plane desperately jinking to avoid being hit. Big problem when the counterfire is from a well protected, pre zeroed antitank gun against an unarmored or at best lightly armored flak weapon!

Something else not modeled in the game are heavy armored shutters on the firing embrasures of permanent fortifications such as pillboxes.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Other Means]

Pish and tosh. You don't have to use tracer, you could push your flak into a copse of trees and use timed ammo.

Sure there's very little gap twixt shutter and wall but that's what the high ROF is for.

[John Kettler]

Other Means,

Light flak from the period typically was impact fuzed, not fitted with Fuze, Mechanical Time. If firing at maximum range, though, there was a self-destruct feature initiated after X seconds time of flight. If you go back and watch period footage of 20mm and 37 and 40mm AA guns in action, you will not find a fuze setter anywhere in the scene, just ammo in drums or clips being fed into the guns. Where you will find fuze setters in evidence, though, is in footage of the 88 mm, 3.7 inch, 90mm, etc. in action. This is because rather than being point fire weapons aimed specifically at the target, the latter guns created an aerial barrage through which whole formations of aircraft had to pass. Fuze MT allowed the burst altitude of the shells to be adjusted so as to best bracket the bombers. This is precisely why optical rangefinders, radar and even captured aircraft shadowing bomber formations figure so prominently into the accounts of the air war, since all provide essential enemy altitude information. Of course, the arrival of proximity fuzing helped the Allies by simplifying the engagement requirements. Passing within lethal range of an aircraft was now enough for an effective engagement, resulting in a huge drop in ammo requirements and a gigantic jump in combat effectiveness per round fired.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Other Means]

Round go bang.

Round go into slit go bang in bunker.

Bang in bunker bad for business.

[PLM2]

I think I can agree its a little too easy sometimes to ID bunkers. Seems to me a bunker would be about as hard to ID as an MG in a large city coming from long range

[z-warfare]

I think bunkers have too much "vehicleness" in a CM sense.

[GDog]

Well, the bunkers that triggered this discussion are proving to be a real pain in this commanders ass.

I have been trying to screen the AT Pillboxes using 60mm smoke rounds to screen advance recon maneuvers. There must be high winds in the area because the smoke doesn't last long!

Since I am not ready for the main assault ( it's only first battle in an operation ) I'm going to throw a 60 second, double barrage of 105mm off-map arty at the one pillbox and surrounding buildings.

I just want to see for myself how ineffective (or lucky) this tactic may be. Even if the Pillbox is untouched the infantry defending it's flanks will suffer and hopefully be weakened prior to my flanking assaults on the position.

Hope to report surprising results!

[costard]

My experience is that the smoke from larger shells lasts longer and that arty barrages against pillboxes just don't work.

CMBO "Clash of Eagles" you get to throw 14 inch against AT pillboxes...

At least you have your first priority of the op. established - looking forward to your report

[GDog]

Originally posted by costard:

arty barrages against pillboxes just don't work.

Confirmed, I only hope I get resupplied to make up for the 60 x 105mm rounds I just wasted!

Well....they may have impacted some "suspected" enemy positions, but from 1500m away for all I know I just wasted some trees and the poor squirrels and birds in them.

God I love the new Dust effects of CMAK (only got CMAK 3 weeks ago )

Going to have to take these pillboxes the old fashioned way , more to follow.

[John Kettler]

GDog,

If you've got dust between your force and the pillbox, plus some means of continuing that happy state of affairs, now's the time to advance!

Regards,

John Kettler

[ December 08, 2007, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[GDog]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

GDog,

If you've got dust between your force and the pillbox, plus some means of continuing that happy state of affairs, nows the time to advance!

Regards,

John Kettler

Agreed, but I have extensive night-ops planned, then a full scale advance / assault planned for the 3rd and final battle in daylight. I will use the dust kicked up from arty along with mortar squad deployed smoke to screen my main assault.

Gee, I hope my opponent doens't read these forums much. If so, hello Neville, prepare to die!

[Broompatrol]

I guess you have figured it already that Arty doesn't work v bunkers (except the huge stuff or so I have read)

Inf with satchels are very effective as long as they are not getting shot at. Don't expect the hero to run up under fire and huck a charge trhough the slit. Bazookas'll get penetrations through the door okay, whether it ko's the bukner seems to be partly due to the exp of the crew inside (but I may be wrong) I've had zooks use up their ammo without the crew bailing, at other times you sneeze and they quit. (usually when they are mine, of course) Regular assaults w/ grenades typically have mixed results.

I say you march your guys past it and hope he runs out of ammo shooting at everybody.

Seriously though. The advantage you have is he's been spotted and you have flexibilty. So be creative and try not to give him any freebies. I don't know what your forces are, so I don't have any specific advice.

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by costard:

CMBO "Clash of Eagles" you get to throw 14 inch against AT pillboxes...

240mm, or 9.45", is the largest calibur round the allies can deliver in that scenario. 14" is representative of NGS from battleships, which unfortunately didn't (and still doesn't) have the range to reach the Eagle's Lair.

[costard]

Thanks Kingfish - I was to some large, very large extent, exaggerating the facts. I wuz wrong. Long live the freedom of the press and it's true critics!

[GDog]

Originally posted by Broompatrol:

I guess you have figured it already that Arty doesn't work v bunkers (except the huge stuff or so I have read)

Inf with satchels are very effective as long as they are not getting shot at. Don't expect the hero to run up under fire and huck a charge trhough the slit. Bazookas'll get penetrations through the door okay, whether it ko's the bukner seems to be partly due to the exp of the crew inside (but I may be wrong) I've had zooks use up their ammo without the crew bailing, at other times you sneeze and they quit. (usually when they are mine, of course) Regular assaults w/ grenades typically have mixed results.

I say you march your guys past it and hope he runs out of ammo shooting at everybody.

Seriously though. The advantage you have is he's been spotted and you have flexibilty. So be creative and try not to give him any freebies. I don't know what your forces are, so I don't have any specific advice.

Well I'm just wrapping up the 1st of 3 battles in the operation. The next battle takes place at night. I'm planning an infantry assault on one pillbox that has a big firing arc across the battlefield. If sucessful this will grant me control of one flank and further extend my deployment zone for the 3rd battle.

From there I can assault the main objective from outside the firing arc of at least 1 of the 2 remaining ( or spotted so far ) bunkers.

I've got a sizable force of Free French under my command and have spent the entire first battle carefully claiming much of the map and moving infantry into position for the night assault.

I'll let you know which of your pillbox busting techniques works best!

[FAI]

Originally posted by GDog:

Well I'm just wrapping up the 1st of 3 battles in the operation. The next battle takes place at night. I'm planning an infantry assault on one pillbox that has a big firing arc across the battlefield. If sucessful this will grant me control of one flank and further extend my deployment zone for the 3rd battle.

From there I can assault the main objective from outside the firing arc of at least 1 of the 2 remaining ( or spotted so far ) bunkers.

I've got a sizable force of Free French under my command and have spent the entire first battle carefully claiming much of the map and moving infantry into position for the night assault.

I'll let you know which of your pillbox busting techniques works best!

So, how did it go?

[GDog]

Originally posted by FAI:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GDog:

Well I'm just wrapping up the 1st of 3 battles in the operation. The next battle takes place at night. I'm planning an infantry assault on one pillbox that has a big firing arc across the battlefield. If sucessful this will grant me control of one flank and further extend my deployment zone for the 3rd battle.

From there I can assault the main objective from outside the firing arc of at least 1 of the 2 remaining ( or spotted so far ) bunkers.

I've got a sizable force of Free French under my command and have spent the entire first battle carefully claiming much of the map and moving infantry into position for the night assault.

I'll let you know which of your pillbox busting techniques works best!

So, how did it go? </font>

[Brent Pollock]

I am playing this as the German vs Steve Vance. Things I can throw in:

*possible spoilers**

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1. yes - no surprise the 105 mm HE OBA is not effective versus the concrete bunkers. One pillbox took two direct hits and the crew kept playing cards and telling jokes.

2. in lieu of smoke, for the ones near or in buildings, dropping the building does nothing to the bunker but the dust will blind it for a turn or few.

3. So far, this is the best battle/op I have played yet for allowing bunkered ATGs to dominate the battlefield, thanks to the large map and height advantage. They've racked up fourteen vehicles in two battles.

We are just about to start the third battle.

[GDog]

Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

I am playing this as the German vs Steve Vance. Things I can throw in:

*possible spoilers**

1. yes - no surprise the 105 mm HE OBA is not effective versus the concrete bunkers. One pillbox took two direct hits and the crew kept playing cards and telling jokes.

2. in lieu of smoke, for the ones near or in buildings, dropping the building does nothing to the bunker but the dust will blind it for a turn or few.

3. So far, this is the best battle/op I have played yet for allowing bunkered ATGs to dominate the battlefield, thanks to the large map and height advantage. They've racked up fourteen vehicles in two battles.

We are just about to start the third battle.

Interesting, this is my first operation and I agree the ATG's in bunkers are a force to be reckoned with.

I have opted for a different approach, that is eliminating one of the pillboxes at night and approaching the others outside ( or nearly ) of their firing arcs.

I only hope i have not left myself too little time to take the main objective.

[Silvio Manuel]

One other "vs Pillbox 75mm" idea is to use Stuarts and Greyhounds - the 37mm should be good for that... although they very well may just cower and reverse/blow smoke instead of firing. The type of 37mm gun they have is great for busting MG pillboxes and bunkers.

[Brent Pollock]

Agreed

[GDog]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

One other "vs Pillbox 75mm" idea is to use Stuarts and Greyhounds - the 37mm should be good for that... although they very well may just cower and reverse/blow smoke instead of firing. The type of 37mm gun they have is great for busting MG pillboxes and bunkers.

Well thats good news considering the great number of Stuarts & Greyhounds I have at my disposal. The 37mm is a single shot weapon correct? I would have though an automatic / 3 round burst weapon would be better suited for that job.

I need to better familiarize myself with all this new armor in CMAK me thinks.

Thanks

[Silvio Manuel]

They are single-shot 37mm guns unfortunately... BUT since the shells are so small and light, the reload time is VERY fast.

If you can move up several 37mm armed vehicles and alternate them moving up to fire then back, the Pillbox's gun will have to waste time slowly tracking back and forth to target the armored cars, increasing your force's survival chances

[Broompatrol]

Yeah, the 37mm gun is accurate to be sure and fun to use. But the behind armor effect is rather poor and the blast is rather weak, but the ROF and accuracy can make up for that in the right situation. My frustration is that the thinner skinned AFV's tend to cower and refuse to shoot if they percieve the threat too great. Like from a Pillbox or a Tiger.

I've never tried them v a bunker before, though.

[von Lucke]

Ah, yes. The 'ol light auto-cannon vs. bunker debate. Been around since the CMBO days.

Here's a little discussion from a few years back that drew a response from the Brain in a Jar himself.