Knocking out 75mm AT Pillbox

[GDog]

Hello commanders,

Your thoughts on going toe to toe from a hull-down position w/ a Sherman -vs- an Axis 75mm AT Concrete Pillbox?

Range is about 1500 meters, the pillbox has missed my tank 3 of 3 times and the tank has scored 2 direct hits but no damage.

Not sure what the armor equivalent is for the concrete pillbox but if historically accurate I can't see my guns doing much from that range head on.

It's very early on in an operation so outflanking it is not an options for 20+ turns when night falls....

Thanks in advance.

[David I]

GDog,

Don't do it man! That pillbox will knock you out. It fires as if it is firing at a TRP, which means he will hit you and probably kill you when he does. You, on the other hand, have to get a firing slit penetration hit, pretty unlikely at that range.

Let us know how it turns out.

DavidI

[John Kettler]

GDog,

Don't know what all you've got in your force, but if I were you, I'd put up cover arcs in case the pillbox has siblings, smoke the identified one, and maneuver to engage it from its blind angles.

Close in from outside his firing arc and pump in HE and .50 cal MG fire at and through the firing embrasure.

Regards,

John Kettler

[GDog]

Originally posted by David I:

GDog,

Don't do it man! That pillbox will knock you out. It fires as if it is firing at a TRP, which means he will hit you and probably kill you when he does. You, on the other hand, have to get a firing slit penetration hit, pretty unlikely at that range.

Let us know how it turns out.

DavidI

David, thanks for the tip, I did not know it wokred as though firing at a TRP, better re-read my manual I guess?

I have backed my tank back and threw up some smoke from another, hope he doesnt get a last lucky shot in as I pull back.

[GDog]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

GDog,

Don't know what all you've got in your force, but if I were you, I'd put up cover arcs in case the pillbox has siblings, smoke the identified one, and maneuver to engage it from its blind angles.

Close in from outside his firing arc and pump in HE and .50 cal MG fire at and through the firing embrasure.

Regards,

John Kettler

Kettler kind sir,

I have LOTS at my disposal, it's only the 2nd turn into the first battle of operation "CASTELFORT" CMAK.

He's got it in a very good spot, going to be tough to get any fire on it from the flanks for some time. It is deployed very close ( in fact it appears half inside ) a light building.

I'm going to bring that building down on top of it to see what happens?

Updates to come.

[stoat]

Originally posted by GDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by David I:

GDog,

Don't do it man! That pillbox will knock you out. It fires as if it is firing at a TRP, which means he will hit you and probably kill you when he does. You, on the other hand, have to get a firing slit penetration hit, pretty unlikely at that range.

Let us know how it turns out.

DavidI

David, thanks for the tip, I did not know it wokred as though firing at a TRP, better re-read my manual I guess?

I have backed my tank back and threw up some smoke from another, hope he doesnt get a last lucky shot in as I pull back. </font>

[Broompatrol]

GDOG,

The odds are in favor of the pillbox at that range. Search previous threads for Antipillbox tactics. Very sound advice from JasonC.

Bottom line..luck and razzle dazzle don't work. superior firepower, smoke and bypassing it will.

Even with smoke it will get little windows to shoot at you so don't think you're invisible.

If that doesn't work try looking on youtube for a Disney training film called: "You and a pillbox: Concrete creampuff."

[dieseltaylor]

The Churchill with the 152mm armour is ideal for this situation --- let me guess - you forgot to pack one?

: )

[rocketman]

I had a recent problem with a pillbox like this, and being not too careful it took out most of my tanks. What I found difficult was to figure out exactly what its arc of fire was. Is it 45 degrees from either side of the center? By the way, in order to fire through its firing slit, wouldn't that mean that you are within its arc of fire also?

One final thought, will a bazooka kill a pillbox with a direct hit from behind?

[SgtMuhammed]

Usually they will although nothing is 100 percent. If you can get a squad behind the bunker they will eventually close assault it and take it out.

[PLM2]

I was playing an operation involving pillboxes recently, infantry seem pretty slow taking them even from behind, dont get too close from behind or you might have your infantry pop up in front of the pillbox. Also if you're men are routed, they might flee in front of the pillbox.

I used bazookas directly from behind at close range, IIRC it gave me "rear door" penetrations or something. Infantry took forever to knock them out by themselves.

[dieseltaylor]

Definitely a job for flame throwers - at last.

[Kingfish]

All this talk of slit penentrations, flamethrowers and satchel charges...Has anyone bothered to see if by knocking on the back door and asking politely the crew would give themselves up?

[SgtMuhammed]

I prefer the "Send plate of Bratwurst" button.

[GDog]

Originally posted by dieseltaylor:

Definitely a job for flame throwers - at last.

Thats the one thing I don't have, flame.

I am going to end up assaulting it from behind with infantry and by the sounds of it a bazooka might do the trick?

Will be awhile until the plan is put into action, I'll let you know how it went then,

thanks

[GDog]

Lastly, I assume any off-map artillery would be wasted on these little concrete bastards ( of which another has popped up in an even deadlier spot! )

Thanks

[Other Means]

Light flak guns are good for taking them out, as they can get a lot of slit penetrations due to high ROF and can't be spotted in return.

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by GDog:

Lastly, I assume any off-map artillery would be wasted on these little concrete bastards ( of which another has popped up in an even deadlier spot! )

Thanks

Yes if you are firing HE in the hopes of getting a direct hit. I remember reading somewhere that the uniform armor rating for a CMBO PB is ~500mm. I assume this was carried over to CMBB and CMAK.

No if you are firing smoke to mask your flanking moves. The largest calibur onboard mortar is the 81mm (3" for the commonwealth), and on average they carry 3-5 smoke rounds. That is not enough if you have a lot of open ground to cover (and the wind is strong enough). A one-turn smoke mission from say a 4.2" mortar will effectively cover the entire firing arc of the PB for at least 2-3 turns (again if the wind is right).

[GDog]

Originally posted by Other Means:

Light flak guns are good for taking them out, as they can get a lot of slit penetrations due to high ROF and can't be spotted in return.

Interesting, why are they not able to be spotted in return? Doesn't the Flak need LOS to target the PB?

[GDog]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GDog:

Lastly, I assume any off-map artillery would be wasted on these little concrete bastards ( of which another has popped up in an even deadlier spot! )

Thanks

Yes if you are firing HE in the hopes of getting a direct hit. I remember reading somewhere that the uniform armor rating for a CMBO PB is ~500mm. I assume this was carried over to CMBB and CMAK.

No if you are firing smoke to mask your flanking moves. The largest calibur onboard mortar is the 81mm (3" for the commonwealth), and on average they carry 3-5 smoke rounds. That is not enough if you have a lot of open ground to cover (and the wind is strong enough). A one-turn smoke mission from say a 4.2" mortar will effectively cover the entire firing arc of the PB for at least 2-3 turns (again if the wind is right). </font>

[Kingfish]

You are correct, but you will also find that an onboard asset, such as a tank, will concentrate its smoke rounds in a much tighter grouping than an offboard asset. It is still spread out, just not as wide as arty.

If you are trying to mask a point target such as a pillbox or gun emplacement, then a direct fire weapon would do fine assuming it has sufficient rounds to do the job. However, if your intention is to cover a flanking force as it crosses open terrain then you offboard arty would be the way to go, if only because of the wide screen it can provide.

[JasonC]

GDog - smaller caliber weapons are hard to locate even when firing from within LOS. MGs can remain a mere "sound contact" with the range as short as 250 meters if they are in good cover. (ATRs are similar). 20mm Flak is somewhat farther, but even at 400m can remain mere sound. The 37mm stuff is more like 800m for a full ID. Beyond those ranges, the pillbox knows something is firing at them, and will get a sound contact (intermittent sometimes) somewhere within 100-200 yards of the shooter - but that is useless for aimed reply fire.

So the light Flak can see and pepper the pillbox, without it doing the same back...

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by Other Means:

Light flak guns are good for taking them out, as they can get a lot of slit penetrations due to high ROF and can't be spotted in return.

Yes this is the best tip. However, some have suggested in the past that a light gun might be a little too good at this task to the point of cheating.

[Other Means]

Originally posted by Hoolaman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Other Means:

Light flak guns are good for taking them out, as they can get a lot of slit penetrations due to high ROF and can't be spotted in return.

Yes this is the best tip. However, some have suggested in the past that a light gun might be a little too good at this task to the point of cheating. </font>

[JasonC]

Actually it wouldn't work in RL. One, the bunker wouldn't be spotted clear across the map, certainly not at a longer range than a firing Flak gun. Two, if lots of light rounds readily find the firing slit, then MGs would KO bunkers more readily than light flak, since they fire lots more light rounds. Three, real bunkers don't pop like balloons when a round breaks the plane of the goal line - light stuff through the firing slit might wound a man or two and suppress them temporarily, but would not permanently KO. Four, even a bunker with all the occupants killed or wounded could readily be remanned by anyone nearby.

All the issues with bunkers in CM are side effects of the attempt to model them as "vehicles" instead of as field fortifications (like trenches) - undoubtedly to use the hitting and penetration routines built for main battle tanks, instead of writing new ones. Same goes for the ease of spotting them. As it is, bunkers are simply broken in CM, and we deal with it. A gun or MG in a trench is handled more realistically, and designers should use them instead.