Dust really wrecks FOW

[GreenAsJade]

I can imagine that this issue is dealt with in the "official patch thread". Sorry I haven't searched through there - we seem to need a "Reader's Digest Official Patch Thread"!

Anyhow, how many enemy AC's can you see in this picture:

Now try this:

This edit is to emphasis that the two pictures are taken of the same game at the same time. Apart from a slight (accidental) move of the screen and deselecting the visible AC, the only real difference is that in the second picture I turned on "fast and compatible dust/smoke" mode.

In playing this scenario, it's the first time I've switched on F&C smoke, and I have been astonished at what I've seen, like the above.

The worst thing about the above is that the small puff of dust is being kicked up by a small AC doing a "move".

I had come to accept that fast vehicles cast plumes of dust that can be seen from miles away.

But this small puff of dust my own forces have no

hope of seeing. It is far away _AND_ out of LOS, behind a largish hill.

BFC have said that what matters for them most is realism. That being the case, I really hope that this dust problem disappears in the upcoming patch.

I'd be happy to have no dust show up at all at EFOW.

Or no dust thrown by "Move"ing vehicles.

Or ideally, dust only visible if your forces can actually see it.

At the moment, it feels so gamey to turn on F&C during each movie to make sure I'm not missing something (how can I not do that when my opponent surely is?!)

GaJ.

[ June 14, 2004, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: GreenAsJade ]

[Pzman]

I don't see how dust destories FOW. If you were on the battlefield the dust wouldn't "hide" itself from the other side. (I'm sure the Germans/British wished they could!) I have seen many pictures from NA and all it takes is a small about of vehicle movement to kick up dust.

[tools4fools]

Panzerman,

I think GreenAsJade means that the ENTIRE small dust cloud is behind a hill and smaller than that hill and therefore can not be seen by his units. As it is out of LOS it should not show up at all.

[GreenAsJade]

That's exactly it, t4f.

The fact that every AFV kicks up dust when it moves, and you can see this dust no matter what, means that there is no way you can sneak AVFs around. You have to assume that your enemy knows where you have AFVs at all times, because he DOES.

GaJ.

[TommyD]

OK maybe this is just me

but isn't this just "real life"

ie, "hey, isn't that a big dust cloud?? Must be armor behind that hill.."

OK OK maybe that the other side shouldn't see the type, etc, but seeing a huge dust cloud shoud alert the other side to armor

or am I missing something???

Tom

[GreenAsJade]

What you are missing is that this ISNT a big dust cloud.

I think I said, in my first post, that I accepted that fast moving AFVs generate plumes of dust that we probably be seen from miles away behind ranges of hills.

But this is slowly moving single light AFVs.

The game shows you the difference in size of dust cloud, so it's not as if we're debating how much dust.

The point is that in the current implementation EVERY AFV MOVEMENT CAN BE SEEN AT ALL TIMES BY THE ENEMY (during the day).

If someone makes the case that this reflects reality, then so be it... I'm open to be convinced. But at the moment this just seems gamey and unrealistic - kind of confirmed by the fact that you can do much better with your graphics set to F&C than realistic.

GaJ.

[Berlichtingen]

Still don't see how this destroys FOW. Let's face it, you see a column of dust, you don't know what it is... could be a Kubelwagen... could be a platoon of Tigers. I wouldn't expect any change from a patch at this point

[tools4fools]

Is this so difficult to understand? You would not see the DUST CLOUD in real life as it is hidden behind a hill. The DUST CLOUD itself is out of LOS of all of your troops!

[BigMik1]

I think you would see that dust cloud coming up. With wind and everything else you will see something coming. Remember the hills in the desert are not that big.

I think the dust cloud helps the realism.

BigMik1

[rune]

First, was dust a problem?

The big snag is that all the roads, except for the main ones which one doesn’t see a lot of, are dust roads, large clouds of thin powdery white dust goes up whenever a vehicle moves. It makes it very hard to move up any tanks without giving ones position away, so we’ve fitted dust shields at the back, blocked on each side and curved up towards heaven. It is fitted immediately below the two exhaust pipes (we have all diesel Shermans).

So we agree on dust is a problem, the next arguement is behind the hill. What does the dust cloud in CMAK represent?

The columns of dust couls rise several hundread feet in height. I have several books where photos show the dust clouds way in the ditance before anything else could be seen. The dust cloud in CMAK while showing the worse, also represent the height of the dust cloud. Yes, dust could be seen over the hill, as they were at the escarpments near Sidi Rezegh. Quite accurate.

Will dig out some photos and scan them if I have time.

Rune

[Sergei]

What is ridiculous is that dust clouds can be seen even in the middle of a sandstorm.

[Paco QNS]

FM 71-100-3 Chptr 7 Environmental Considerations

With the desert's loose surface material, observers can easily detect movement because of the flying sand and dust. In an actual engagement, this cloud may obscure a unit, protecting it from direct fire as it advances. But the element of surprise is probably lost.

Moving at night maybe the logical choice. The dust is still there, and vehicles (which should be widely spaced) can get separated. But there is no worry about enemy detection from a dust column or the sun's rays reflecting on glass, mirrors, or metal. These can give away movement and positions at distances of up to 20 kilometers.

As a matter of fact, the height of the dust column raised depends more on winds and heat than the speed of the vehicle.

Observe that here, in "Techniques for operating vehicles" there is no such thing as "drive slowly in order to not raise dust":

Techniques for Operating Vehicles

The best time to drive on sand is at night or early morning when the sand is damp and traction is better. By reducing tire pressure, vehicles may gain some traction. However, prolonged driving on partially deflated tires overheats tires and breaks down sidewalls.

Evenly distributing loads helps operators control their vehicles. Also, operators must apply good driving skills to avoid harsh jolting of tires and extreme wear on tracks, wheels, springs, and shock absorbers.

Crossing dunes requires careful reconnaissance. Units should stay on the upwind side if possible. The wind may have built up sand around small scrubs forming small hills. Because of poor traction, wheeled vehicles should not attempt to move through areas where this has occurred.

Salt marshes are normally impassable, especially those with a dry crust of silt on top. A surface crust might cover sandy areas, which could impede travel.

To extract a sand-trapped vehicle, units should carry at least enough pierced steel planking or galvanized iron to put under, and allow traction for, the driving wheels. Also effective are canvas sand mats, preferably with lateral strips of metal for strength and traction.

Other essential emergency equipment includes jacks, jack blocks, tow ropes, shovels, axes, and picks for use in vehicle recovery. Winch-equipped vehicles should not normally lead movements; they should locate near the rear.

Moreso, in special areas a "minimum speed is needed":

Some sand areas will be covered by a surface crust. This is caused by chemicals in the ground cementing sand particles together, In many cases it will be possible to drive on top of this crust and minimize dust signature and the chance of bogging down. Consider the following techniques when driving on a crust:

Use staggered columns to facilitate movement. As a general rule vehicles should not follow one behind the other.

Ensure vehicles maintain a minimum speed (determined from experience) below which they will break through the crust.

Appendix 3 TECHNIQUES FOR OPERATING EQUIPMENT IN THE DESERT

[Kitty]

Hehehe, forgive me. Is this thread for real?

Kitty

[REVS]

Try using dust to your advantage - incorporate it into your tactics, because it's a fact of CMAK desert life.

eg, use something like Universal Carriers/HTs etc running around behind hills on one flank while tanks go down the other flank. This can create quite a bit of indecision on the part of an opponent, causing him to split his forces – and for you to concentrate yours.

[Wicky]

Try playing purely from view point '1' -(poss 2 to mimic hight of tank commander in vehicle).

This will stop you seeing behind hills etc.

Simple

[tools4fools]

I think the point is not that ANY dust cloud can be seen - if it is a large dustcloud (kicked up by one or several vehicles). Everything OK that those clouds are seen and I believe those were seen about to 20 clicks in real life.

But if you moved your Kübel 50 Meters at slow speed and you were out of LOS hidden behind a 1000m high mountain, that dust cloud will not be seen in real life.

In CMAK even a fart of dust will be seen, even if it is behind that 1000m high mountain.

Another thing is that if a gun kicks up dust when firing you always can see that dust cloud as well - at the accurate location. Even if the gun is only a sound contact...

At the beginning of movements when the dust cloud starts to build up you can even count how many vehicles are around, therefore you can count enemy vehicle numbers per dust cloud.

Any dust cloud can be seen by the opponent. Even if a single Kübel reverses for 10 meters on a concrete road.

If you guys think that all that is no problem reagarding realistic FOW, well, then up to you...

Marcus

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[GreenAsJade]

Yeah - I had a funny thing where a dust trail led up to behind the crest of a hill I was looking at, then the next turn the sound contact appeared on a neighboring rise. Guess where the vehicle really was.

If this is realistic, according to you all who sound like you know what you are talking about, then so be it. I'd like to see some of the pictures some people offered.

I also take Revs' point: use it to your advantage.

But... I thought the whole big thing was supposed to be realism, not taking advantage of gamey features. For my money, if you can get an advantage out of turning on something like F&C graphcs, then that's not realism, that's gamey...

GaJ.

[Kobal2]

It's not much of a problem, since it affects both sides equally :/

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by tools4fools:

I think the point is not that ANY dust cloud can be seen - if it is a large dustcloud (kicked up by one or several vehicles). Everything OK that those clouds are seen and I believe those were seen about to 20 clicks in real life.

But if you moved your Kübel 50 Meters at slow speed and you were out of LOS hidden behind a 1000m high mountain, that dust cloud will not be seen in real life.

In CMAK even a fart of dust will be seen, even if it is behind that 1000m high mountain.

Another thing is that if a gun kicks up dust when firing you always can see that dust cloud as well - at the accurate location. Even if the gun is only a sound contact...

At the beginning of movements when the dust cloud starts to build up you can even count how many vehicles are around, therefore you can count enemy vehicle numbers per dust cloud.

Any dust cloud can be seen by the opponent. Even if a single Kübel reverses for 10 meters on a concrete road.

If you guys think that all that is no problem reagarding realistic FOW, well, then up to you...

Marcus

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Marcus, I think I understand your point.

The issue being that there are no LOS checks for dust clouds, they are always seen, even if in the middle of a Khamsin, or behind LOS obstacles as has been pointed out, no? This regardless of wind conditions. An issue also that dust is always kicked up, regardless of surface. And finally there is no sensitivity to vehicle size or speed in creation of dust clouds.

Dustcloulds seem also not to drift in a manner one would have presumed considering windconditions. Could be wrong there but that's my experience.

I agree it is a problem, especially with F/C turned on (hadn't tried it before you pointed it out, and am somewhat surprised at those brown sausages I must say). My general feel is that there is too little dust But I'd still want LOS checks.

CMAK comes a way but not all the way. Apart from oddly behaving clouds there is also no sun-blindness, without which the attacking across open desert is very precarious. Also no haze, with much the same effect. Desert surface is plain and of just two types. Milder wind does not have the effect of not really bothering the guys with the wind in their back but almost blinding those who gets it in the eyes. And so on. You get Hammada but not really Wadi's, and Deir's don't work. Sandbags (presumably representing sangars) can exist alongside foxholes...

I guess one will have to size her up for what she is, and all she is not, and decide if she is worth the while. Several players actually do not play desert scenarios at all.

I do. But I will in the future make very sure my opponent and I are both using full smokegraphics.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Kobal2:

It's not much of a problem, since it affects both sides equally :/

I guess then we could give jetpacks and miniguns to all soldiers, as long as it affected both sides.

[Sergei]

Neither does dust block dust behind it from view. I think while you're engaged in armoured combat, it would be hard to see what's going on behind the enemy front line - like if he's moving more forces to the front - because there'd be dust everywhere already. But instead you can pinpoint the movements EXACTLY. In reality you'd also be able to tell the bearing of the enemy, but not their precise distance unless you saw the base of the dust cloud, thus seeing the vehicle as well.

But I trust nothing could have been done to improve this, because these otherwise cool features were added to an old engine that hadn't been written for such things.

[Kobal2]

Haha Well, Silent Storm gives them primitive mecha armors (aptly dubbed "PanzerKleins") and laser guns, I guess it's OK

[rune]

Tools, if you are going to make a case, make it accurate. 1000 meter hill? Extreme setting allows 8 meter height difference. The settings on the map range from 0 to 19. So 20 changes in elevation times 8 meters means the highest possible hill is 160 meters. Could sand from a moving vehicle be seen over a 160 meter obstruction?

The newly arrived M3 Grants had been divided fairly evenly among the 8th Army units, with the hope that their presence would boost morale. In the early morning of May 27th the 4th Armoured Brigade was warned of a strong enemy force approaching from the southwest. With a light squadron of M3 Stuarts about 2,000 yards in front, the Grants of "B" and "C" squadrons of 3 RTR moved out in line formation. Within 10 minutes they received reports of large dust clouds about 3 miles ahead. By the time the Grants had closed ranks with their Stuarts, large formations of PzKpfw.IIIs and IVs had been identified.

In this case over 3 miles away the dust was seen. I defer to those tankers here that served in the Gulf, how high did your dust trails get?

Rune

[JPS]

Dust, as it is implemented now, seems to allow precise calculation of the amount of enemy vehicles, which is unrealistic. Also, it seems to give input of enemy movement (even tiny) with zero delay and zero uncertainty of the exact position of the involved vehicles.

I am glad I didn't know about these "features" in RoW IV, as that would have ruined a lot of the FOW fun for me. And I was the defender in the two scenarios where that mattered!

If "features" like that are available then "counter-features" like random gusts of wind raising dust somewhere should be implemented. Then better FOW would be there again.

[tools4fools]

Rune,

the 1000m were an exaggeration as somebody mentioned "hills being small in the desert, so neglectable anyway".

I know that there are no 1000m mountains in CM.

And I completly agree that large numbers of vehicles kick up big dust clouds that can be seen from miles away.

However that the number of vehicles can be counted is a bit too much.

That dust clouds give the accurate position of vehicles which are only a sound contact or not id-ed at all is not good either. Emphasize "accurate" here.

That backing up a Kübel on a road for 5m behind a 80m hill will show up to the enemy.

Marcus

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