Slang Question

[Maastrictian]

I know the British used the term "Jerry" to refer to a German, "Yank" to refer to an American. How did they refer to a Frenchman in (somewhat derogitory) slang?

Thanks!

--Chris

[THumpre]

I believe they refered to them as "frogs"

[MikeyD]

Having a French surname myself, I feel free to divulge the classic American term for French: Frog

No doubt because of their penchant for eating frog's legs, plus it starts with the letter F.

The American right-wing many have recently come up with more tart terms for the French due to their exasperation over the French government's fearlessly calling out Bush on his bald-faced lies.

[Holman]

Here's a nickname question that bugs me:

What did the Germans call their tanks? The Pz V was a Panther and the Pz VI a Tiger, of course, but were there nicknames for earlier Panzers (or even subtypes)? You know, something comparable to "Sherman" for the US M4 Medium Tank, or even "Easy Eight"?

I just can't imagine German tankers not bestowing some more familiar names than "Mark II," "Mark III," "Mark IV"...

[arax3]

MikeyD: The only lies I see in your thread are yours! Where do you get such trash? From BBC or another bunch of left-wing bomb throwers who care nothing for the truth? A3

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Martyr:

I just can't imagine German tankers not bestowing some more familiar names than "Mark II," "Mark III," "Mark IV"...

Interesting question. I recall that the Russians referred to T-34 as "Threefour" (in Russian of course and as a diminutive form), so I wonder what nicks Panzer crews used.

Finns called T-26 series as Vickers and BT series as Christie tanks. T-28 was Mail Train and T-34 Pochard. KV was Klimi, IS and ISU were Stalin. StuG was known as Sturmi.

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by Sergei:

StuG was known as Sturmi.

The StuG was Belgian???? :confused:

[Herr Kruger]

Originally posted by Martyr:

I just can't imagine German tankers not bestowing some more familiar names than "Mark II," "Mark III," "Mark IV"...

I've wondered that as well. Why the names like Tiger and Panther came in when they did, and how they came about, and then we have the Lynx as well...

- J Kruger -

[Michael Dorosh]

Panzerkampfwagen IV was the full title. Only the British used the term "Mark IV", it is NOT a German military term. The Americans likely picked up on the use of "Mark" also. It was widely used in newspaper accounts and other media stories.

In period documents, they are abbreviated as Pz IV, or the proper abbreviation being PzKpfw IV.

Don't speak German, but I doubt many tankers felt the need to distinguish between tank types. "Mein Panzer" was probably sufficient to convey what needed to be said. "Panzer IV" would be my best guess. If necessary to distinguish subtypes, the proper nomenclature was "ausf D", "ausf F1", etc.

The Germans had a lot of long and cumbersome titles, and the language itself is more complex than English. There is no word for "sir", for example. "Jawohl" is the closest they come, usually followed by the full rank title of the superior, as well as the word "Herr" (except in the SS, where the Herr was deleted). ie - Jawohl, Herr Generalfeldmarschall would be used where an American or British officer would just say "Yes, sir."

Looking at words like Nahveirteidigungswaffe or some of their position titles (Festungspionieroberfeldwebel) one isn't really surprised that they didn't have "Mark I" or "Mark II" as part of their lexicon.

[ May 21, 2004, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Holman]

I'm just surprised, given the tendency of soldiers to simplify and slangify terminology, that they didn't have nicknames to use when discussing the relative merits of the Kompanie's good old Panzerkampfwagen IVc's as compared to those new-fangled Panzerkampfwagen Vd's.

Or did the Wehrmacht not go in for such euphemistic informalizing expressionistic personification?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Martyr:

I'm just surprised, given the tendency of soldiers to simplify and slangify terminology, that they didn't have nicknames to use when discussing the relative merits of the Kompanie's good old Panzerkampfwagen IVc's as compared to those new-fangled Panzerkampfwagen Vd's.

Or did the Wehrmacht not go in for such euphemistic informalizing expressionistic personification?

As you point out, Germans love nicknames. Many of them are probably not recorded, at least not in English.

Most English histories fail to give the regional affiliation of German divisions, for example, while histories in German do include them.

So a lot of stuff hasn't been translated, probably as it has no bearing on "real" history as opposed to the stuff we all want to read the social history stuff.

Another possibility might be "PIII" or "PIV" etc., we really need to have a German speaker weigh in on this one. Perhaps Markuss Hofbauer still checks his email at the Panzerfaust site.

Then again, Sherman tankers never referred to their steeds as "M4A3" but simply "Sherman" or "my ****ing tank." Soldiers in the field really don't talk the way Steven Speilberg and Tom Hanks pretend they do. Commonwealth Sherman tankers had two types - Shermans and Fireflies. Officially there were IIc, III, V, Ia hybrid blah blah blah but no one outside of a workshop much cared in day to day conversation.

I doubt the Germans were regaling each other with stories of "good old ausf F1"

They probably used the numbers on the tanks more often than tank types - "Fritz, check the headspacing on the bow gun in 444."

[Sergei]

One possibility is distinguishing between roles of tanks, e.g. leichtes Panzer, Panzer (is there a German word for medium weight?), schweres Panzer, Sturmgeschütz etc. That would at least allow distinguishing between PzKpfw I or II and PzKpfw III or IV.

[stikkypixie]

Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:

StuG was known as Sturmi.

The StuG was Belgian???? :confused: </font>

[British Tommy]

Originally posted by arax3:

MikeyD: The only lies I see in your thread are yours! Where do you get such trash? From BBC or another bunch of left-wing bomb throwers who care nothing for the truth? A3

Let's keep modern politics out of this forum. :mad:

[SgtDuke6216]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Then again, Sherman tankers never referred to their steeds as "M4A3" but simply "Sherman" or "my ****ing tank." Soldiers in the field really don't talk the way Steven Speilberg and Tom Hanks pretend they do. Commonwealth Sherman tankers had two types - Shermans and Fireflies. Officially there were IIc, III, V, Ia hybrid blah blah blah but no one outside of a workshop much cared in day to day conversation.

I doubt the Germans were regaling each other with stories of "good old ausf F1"

They probably used the numbers on the tanks more often than tank types - "Fritz, check the headspacing on the bow gun in 444." [/QB]

Actually the US tankers called the Sherman, "Rolanson Lighter", "Zippos" and "Steel Coffins" because as you already know, The Sherman had a terrible survivability rate. And when hit they usually burned instantly because of the ammo location. Losing 3 out of 4 Shermans in a platoon against 1 Tiger was actually considered acceptable. The thing of it was that there were more Shermans than Tigers and PzIV, etc and they could be replace the Tank and crew,,but the replacement crew did not have much experience with the Sherman and usually ended up KIA/WIA on thier first time out.....Some practice eh?

[SgtDuke6216]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Then again, Sherman tankers never referred to their steeds as "M4A3" but simply "Sherman" or "my ****ing tank." Soldiers in the field really don't talk the way Steven Speilberg and Tom Hanks pretend they do. [/QB]

This is because of his "artistic license". He has said that he makes his movies in they way he remembers them being "glorified" when he was growing up. Just as Coppola does, Come on "Apocolypse Now" please..... Mike you got to stop refering to Speilberg, Ambrose, Hank,etc as the respected and main stream though of the US in WW2. Just think about what it would be like if Americans took what Micheal Moore and Sean Penn

said as truth.....shutter the thought.

[Yaphank]

Originally posted by SgtDuke6216:

Actually the US tankers called the Sherman, "Rolanson Lighter", "Zippos" and "Steel Coffins" because as you already know, The Sherman had a terrible survivability rate. And when hit they usually burned instantly because of the ammo location.

Hmmm, I always thought it was the Germans who coined the lighter nickname for the Sherman.

[patboy]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

[QB]"Mein Panzer" was probably sufficient to convey what needed to be said. "Panzer IV" would be my best guess. If necessary to distinguish subtypes, the proper nomenclature was "ausf D", "ausf F1", etc.

_________________________________________________

First name of "ausf A" was Begleitwagen, means

escort vehicle.Pat.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by SgtDuke6216:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Then again, Sherman tankers never referred to their steeds as "M4A3" but simply "Sherman" or "my ****ing tank." Soldiers in the field really don't talk the way Steven Speilberg and Tom Hanks pretend they do. Commonwealth Sherman tankers had two types - Shermans and Fireflies. Officially there were IIc, III, V, Ia hybrid blah blah blah but no one outside of a workshop much cared in day to day conversation.

I doubt the Germans were regaling each other with stories of "good old ausf F1"

They probably used the numbers on the tanks more often than tank types - "Fritz, check the headspacing on the bow gun in 444."

Actually the US tankers called the Sherman, "Rolanson Lighter", "Zippos" and "Steel Coffins" because as you already know, The Sherman had a terrible survivability rate. And when hit they usually burned instantly because of the ammo location. Losing 3 out of 4 Shermans in a platoon against 1 Tiger was actually considered acceptable. The thing of it was that there were more Shermans than Tigers and PzIV, etc and they could be replace the Tank and crew,,but the replacement crew did not have much experience with the Sherman and usually ended up KIA/WIA on thier first time out.....Some practice eh? [/QB]</font>

[Kohler]

the british were the first to nickname their lend-lease sherman tanks "ronsons" after the cigarette lighter advertized to 'light every time'

i think the germans used this to.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Don't speak German, but I doubt many tankers felt the need to distinguish between tank types. "Mein Panzer" was probably sufficient to convey what needed to be said.

LOL! Very probably. German military jargon is and was as full of acronyms and abbreviations and any other army. In contemporary sources Germans tend to make unofficial acronyms out of official abbreviations, actually quite similar to the French (who, for example, call the "Regiment Parachutistes Etrangere" "le rep"). There is also a fetisch for numbers, much like the Americans I think. Such as the Pak 35 being called "Threecommaseven" and the Panzer IV being called "Four", regardless of specific variant.

But some names were PR Successes in Germany as well as in the West. "Panther" and "Tiger" - and "Luchs" - are brief (military terms need to be), easy to use terms with a positive ring. Strange as it might seem, the Germans tend to use them as much as the enemy did.

The Germans had a lot of long and cumbersome titles,

You mean really really frustratingly cumbersome like "5th Armoured Regt (8th Princess Louise's (New Brunswick) Hussars)"? Titles that cannot even be abbreviated into convenient form?

and the language itself is more complex than English.

cough cough.

Liberating my lungs simply to demonstrate the extreme complexity of English pronounciation.

There is no word for "sir", for example. "Jawohl" is the closest they come, usually followed by the full rank title of the superior, as well as the word "Herr" (except in the SS, where the Herr was deleted) ie - Jawohl, Herr Generalfeldmarschall would be used where an American or British officer would just say "Yes, sir."

Ah yes, personal adress was formal. But indeed so was that of the French (Mon replacing Herr) and most other European languages at the time. We're speaking an era when even married couples could adress eachother with "You". The SS used Kamerad instead of Herr initially, being a socially revolutionary political movement. Yup, just like the Soviets.

Looking at words like Nahveirteidigungswaffe or some of their position titles (Festungspionieroberfeldwebel) one isn't really surprised that they didn't have "Mark I" or "Mark II" as part of their lexicon.

Hrmpf!

Oh yeah? Well hey, who's "Lord Strathcona" anyway and what were you doing to his horse? And what's "South Saskatchewan"? Sounds like a drunken American asking for a glass of whisky in an Armenian pub. Maybe in the sweet company of Princess...Patricia? And The Governor General's Foot Guards - what's that, a pair of fancy slippers?

Cheerio

Dandelion

[_Axe_]

Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:

StuG was known as Sturmi.

The StuG was Belgian???? :confused: </font>

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

As you point out, Germans love nicknames. Many of them are probably not recorded, at least not in English.

Most English histories fail to give the regional affiliation of German divisions, for example, while histories in German do include them.

Very accurate, and I couldn't agree more about the lack of vital information. Conversely, German sources never bother telling me much about "enemy" units, it is the odd joy of finding even a superficial explanation where the boys were from and what it was like living there.

So a lot of stuff hasn't been translated, probably as it has no bearing on "real" history as opposed to the stuff we all want to read the social history stuff.

Couldn't agree more again actually. What's the point of knowing a unit is called "Nova Scotia Highlanders" if one has no idea what Nocia Scotia is, except a green blob in an Atlas of course, but nothing of what people do for a living there in 1940, if it is urban or rural, what regional political sympathies look like, if there are regional peculiarities or dialects and so on. They might as well be called "Dark Side of the Moon Rangers".

Another possibility might be "PIII" or "PIV" etc., we really need to have a German speaker weigh in on this one. Perhaps Markuss Hofbauer still checks his email at the Panzerfaust site.

Well, guess I could answer that one quite easily, and so could Andreas, Joachim and quite a number of Germanspeakers here on BFC. But by all means, you go ahead and mail this Hofbauer character...

They probably used the numbers on the tanks more often than tank types - "Fritz, check the headspacing on the bow gun in 444."

Indeed. Or the nickname of a tank if very established, or the commander name. In your example then, "check Fritz' tank (wagon/cart/can or similar popular contemporary German slang for tank)".

Cheerio

Dandelion

[flamingknives]

Even I, in my gross ignorace of the details of the WWII Wehrmacht, know that the Germans used nicknames:

Jabos. From Jagdbomber (AIUI)

Tommy-Cooker (that would be the Sherman)

U-boot or Boot: Unterseeboot.

Possibly the 37mm was called the doorknocker, but I understand that this one may not actually have been used.

They seem to have been pretty handy with acronyms too, Flak and Pak.

[Dandelion]

...and forgot to mention, one quite often see the radio callname of tanks being used as nicknames for specific tanks in sources. "Sun one" "Arab two" etc.