Need info on Normandy battle

[Kingfish]

I am looking for any info on the battles around La Bijude, a small town located roughly between Epron and Cambes. During Operation Charnwood the British 59th division battled elements of the 12th SS Panzer in and around the village.

Maps, OOBs, AARs, anything would be helpful. I am particularly interested in the German's defensive deployments, especially the trench system that was constructed south of the village.

So far this site has provided the best info.

Many thanks in advance

[Pyewacket]

I have no information, but I like to say that the site is really great..

[Redwolf]

What date is that?

[Bogdan]

Dear Kingfish,

Osprey Publishing recently published a "Campaign serie" book about the battle for Caen, summer 1944.

These books are, as usual, very informative and pleasant to read (those eye-bird-view map are really cute !).

There's a chapter about operation "Charnwood", July 1944

Try this link .

(Edited to add that, if you need a scan of a 1:25000 scale topo map, just email me, precising the exact sector you want near Caen).

[Kingfish]

Redwolf,

Date is July 7-9, 1944.

Bogdan,

I would greatly appreciate a scan if it isn't too much trouble. The area I am interested in is around the vilage of La Bijude. It is roughly midway between Cambes and Epron, just north of Caen. Check out the map from the link I provided to get a general idea of where the village is. My address is in my profile.

[Alkiviadis]

I've just emailed you a map scan you may find useful

[Redwolf]

The division history of 12th SS Panzer has 37 complete A4 pages fine printed on this operation. Specific number and types of tanks are mentioned and whatnot.

Can you read German? I'd be happy to send a copy.

Or can you point out holes in the above webpage that you want filled.

[Kingfish]

Redwolf,

Does the 12ss book mention anything on the trench system the Germans dug in and around La Bijude? Anything else on their defensive arrangements? Unfortunately I cannot read German, but I do enjoy their beer.

[Bogdan]

Kingfish,

I saw that Alkiviadis sent you a map. Do you need another one ? Because I've it too at 1/25000 scale.

Here is a satellite map of the NW of Caen, taken (IIRC) in 1987-1990... You can clearly see the villages of Cambes-en-Plaine and Epron, which are in the upper right corner of the picture. La Bijude is now a small part of Epron, and the north to south road passing along is now bigger (map from 1999).

Caen geographic datas :

  Lat: 49.1833  decimal degrees

  Long: -0.3667  decimal degrees

National geospatial intelligence agency

[ October 07, 2004, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Bogdan ]

[Redwolf]

Kingfish, please bump this thread Saturday morning (or send email). I'm too hectic during this work week but I would be happy to help on the weekend.

Alternatively, if there is a German speaker here who is interested in Normandy battles, would happily consume these 37 pages anyway and tell Kingfish what he needs to know on the way, I'd be happy to send photocopies.

[Bogdan]

Kingfish,

Map sent !

Tell me if you need some help about translation, or whatever

[Kingfish]

Excellent! Thanks for that.

On a related question, does anyone know what type of tanks were present in the following formations during mid-July '44:

141st & 144th R.A.C. - Churchills of Shermans?

Westminster Dragoons - This unit is part of 79th armd div, so am I correct in assuming that the Crocodiles mentioned in the 59th division's website are from this unit?

Also, the same website mentions the 234/73 AT battery as being under 59th div's command during Operation Pomergranite, and it list the unit as being equipped with SP 17pdrs. Would these be Archers or Achillies?

Yes, I am a stickler for detail when it comes to scenario design.

[Steve McClaire]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

141st & 144th R.A.C. - Churchills of Shermans?

I believe 141st RAC Rgt was part of 79th Armoured too ... at least I know elements of 141st RAC were on loan to the US 29th Infantry division in Sept. 1944 to help reduce German fortifications on the Brittany peninsula. They were equiped with Churchill croc flamethrowing tanks.

[JonS]

141RAC - Crocodiles. Part of 30th Armd Bde, 79 Armd Div.

144RAC - Shermans, mix of I (I think) and VC. Part of 33rd Armd Bde (independant).

2nd County of London Yeomanry (Westminster Dragoons) - Sherman Crab (flail). Part of 30th Armd Bde, 79th Armd Div.

234 Bty, 73 A-Tk Regt - equipped with either M-10 (3-in) and M-10 (17-pdr), 12 in total. Organised in three troops of 4 guns. May also have been a 8/4 or 4/8 mix. 73 A-Tk Regt was the Corps A-Tk Regt for 30 Corps.

[ October 14, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Kingfish]

Bump for Redwolf

Jon,

Thanks for the info. I'm going to use Wolverines, since the Achillies doesn't show up in CMBO until Jan '45.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

I'm going to use Wolverines, since the Achillies doesn't show up in CMBO until Jan '45.

Yes, quite right too - for the Mediterranean. I just cross-checked with a couple of different sources and discovered that CM has it right - no M10C Achillies till early '45 in Italy. However, in NWE conversions of Wolverines to Achilles began at least as early as April '44, with issues beginning in June for 4CanArmdDiv (which didn't land in France till late July). See, for example, Report #141, pages 21 - 23.

I'm just off to beat various sources into a bloody pulp with a 3 inch stick. Toodle pip.

Regards

JonS

Edit: updated post with respect to availability of Achilles due to new - to me - info.

[ October 14, 2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by JonS:

I'm just off to beat the first source into a bloody pulp with a 3 inch stick. Toodle pip.

Is that diameter or length? Please be precise.

Michael

[JonS]

Post of 21:40 above editted. Changes to 234 A-Tk Bty and to 141 RAC

Emrys,

I'm a gunner - you figure it out

[Redwolf]

Here is what the 12. SS history had. I goofed on the 37 pages I

claimed above, that was for 7-9 June . But there's still 10 pages on July.

Anyway, the defense against the Caen attack starting July 7:

Division battle station (Divisionsgefechtsstand) at northern Edge of

Caen.

Division reserves at Abbaye d'Ardenne.

Reinforced 25. SS Panzergrenadierregiment (PGR) occupies a wide bow

vom the railroad line west of la Bijude. South of Cambes, north of

Galmache, north and west of Buron, northwest of Gruchy, west of

Authie, west of Franqueville. About 7 kilometers wide as the bird

flies, actual length of line 8-9 kilometers. Between the battalions

(three battalions deloyed in the line) there are gaps of several

hundred meters. 1 Battalion is on the right, 2. in the middle,

3. left going to Guchy. Left of that is 14.(Flak) company of 25. PGR

and 16.(pioneers) company.

Air defense is 4. battery (37mm) of Flakabteilung 12, positioned south

of the Orne bridge at Caen. The 1. battery is south of Cussy (noo

equipment given). 2. and 3 battery have been taken out of the line

when 25 PGR took their positions.

The division artillery had two battalions useable: 1 (self-propelled)

was "in the bridgehead" (I assume the German bridgehead over the

Orne). 3 battalion (heavy, I assume 150mm towed) was in Faubourgh de

Vaucaelles south of the Orne.

The 12 tank hunter detachment is given as not usable, instead "the

division tank regiment had to do the mobile tank defense in the whole

division sector from the railroad line Caen-Lur sur Mer to Eterville".

Tank regiment strength reported on 7.7.1944: 37 Panzer IV, 24

Panthers. A few more were ready after the report before the attack

began, and tanks were split as follows: 5. company with 5x Pz IV is

north and west of Buron and 4x Pz IV in "ambush position" (no place

given, I assume that means reserve behind Buron). 3. company with 17x

Panther is reserve northeast and west Ardenne. 6+8. company with 23x

Pz IV as reserve near the water tower west of Caen for use north, west

and southwest. 9. company with 5x Pz IV in ambush position at the

eastern edge of the airfield. 1., 2. and 4. companies are in ambush

positions at Bretteville-sour-Odon and Eterville. 7. company is in

rest area.

Infantry reserve is the "beaten up" 3. battalion 26 PGR (SPWs) and

division escort company. The 3. battalion is westwest of the city (I

assume that means Caen), the escort company is 2 km northwest of Caen,

later move to the city edge.

I./26 was resting south of Caen. The pioneer battalion only had one

company in the field helping with mining.

2. artillery battalion and the recon battalion were not in combat

positions.

The story goes on to give the Brith strength in detail.

The is a detailed list of equipment on hand for I./25 PGR, let me know

if you want that.

There is a detailed report from the leader of 7. company II./25 PGR

(which I assume is from la Bijude) about the night and morning of July

8. Some point from it:

- "the trench system was undermanned and useless against a tank

attack" (he had ordered his men into the cellars of the village when

the artillery preparation gegan).

- apparently they only had Panzerfausts for AT weapons

- their artillery did not fire to support them (continue to fire on

les Buissons)

- "the tanks disappears in the direction of Cambes". I assume these

are enemy tanks bypassing them

- enemy tanks overwhelmed most of their positions mostly by crushing

the field fortifications.

- the survivors were bypassed

There is more about followup battles beginning at the Bijude-Cambes

road, let me know if this is helpful.

[Jaws]

Thanks for sharing:) Would you mind to Email me the pages so I can use it for a battlefield tour in the Normandy area. We are studying a lot and looking for some German side info. If you need something from Normandy just mail me.

[Jaws]

Originally posted by Bogdan:

Dear Kingfish,

Osprey Publishing recently published a "Campaign serie" book about the battle for Caen, summer 1944.

These books are, as usual, very informative and pleasant to read (those eye-bird-view map are really cute !).

There's a chapter about operation "Charnwood", July 1944

Try this link .

(Edited to add that, if you need a scan of a 1:25000 scale topo map, just email me, precising the exact sector you want near Caen).

Do you have a 25:000 map from Villers Bocage?? It is just around the corner of Caen If so I like to use it for the battlefield tour mentioned above.

[Kingfish]

Redwolf,

Thank you for taking the time to translate the book. The pieces are slowly coming together.

I took the liberty to e-mail the webmaster of the 59th division site to see if he had any more info on the German defenses at La Bijude. Unfortunately, he didn't, but he did point me to this site.

[Bogdan]

Originally posted by Jaws:

Do you have a 25:000 map from Villers Bocage?? It is just around the corner of Caen If so I like to use it for the battlefield tour mentioned above.

Hi Jaws

Sorry for the delay, I wasn't there for a little time. Of course I have a topo map but the place has changed a lot since this summer of 1944.

You surelly know that the city was bombed and almost completelly destroyed. Villers was rebuilt in the fifties and I'm not sure that the actual street pattern is the same as sixty years ago.

The outskirts of the city is now an industrial/commercial sector and the main road leading from Caen to Villers has little to compare with the little NR175 of 1944...

By the way, the topo of course has not changed a lot and I would be pleased to talk much more about with you here, as soon as I can scan this map

I keep you informed.

[theike]

Ahum, Bogdan?...

I would love some of your scans of areas in witch fighting took place. I dont have any point of specific interest as to battles, just in map making. And with scans of a 1:25.000 scale the mapmaking would be so 'easy' and nice. Ive made some maps of real places before, and now im trying to do some more maps it would be good to make some with real input aswell.

Maybe i could even make some maps for others of areas they are interested in? I myself would pic the most pictoresk ones that provide the most interesting battle options...since i dont often play any scenarios from WWII, but made up ones, that my bro or me made up to play eachother.

(...where was i going? Oh yes;...)

Maybe u also know a site with topografical maps of France? Im really interested in everything that could provide a real looking map.

all types of landscape are good.

Maybe u have some u find interesting yourself stored on your computer already...they might take up alot of place, but u could send me like 10 emails;) no problem here....

it would be so welcome...(if u find the time)

[Bogdan]

Originally posted by theike:

Maybe u have some u find interesting yourself stored on your computer already...they might take up alot of place, but u could send me like 10 emails;) no problem here....

it would be so welcome...(if u find the time)

Well, I'm going to be known as a kind of map-dealer ! Please enjoy as this service is still free LOL

As I said before, my modest collection of map focuses on the Normandy beaches and more inland : Caen, Villers-Bocage, Hill 112, Bayeux, Sainte-Mère Église... But I have also some maps of the river Seine valley, from the Paris region to the Andelle river (SE of Rouen)...

I use them a lot for map-making (have a glance to www.warfarehq.com and its "3 Months in France" CMBO Tourney ).

I would be glad to scan these maps, but if only for a personnal use of course. These sources are the property of the IGN (Institut Géographique National) and I think it would be illegal to "spread" them into the internet without an autorization...

By the way, map-making is a personnal task and for free so I really think that scanning the maps and sending them to other people might not create some problems !

About website : I often use Google and type "topo map", "topographique", "topografic", "mapa", etc... ....and an image search often gives some nice surprise.