sewer movement

[yacinator]

What's sewer movement? :confused:

[Sergei]

I don't think it exists in CMAK. Just in CMBB. To know what it means, you could just consult the CMBB manual.

[GreenAsJade]

It's a polite term for what happens when you go to the toilet.

GaJ.

[GreenAsJade]

PS: Unlike in Russia, in Afrika they didn't have to worry about carting their toilets around. It was warm enough that they just went and squatter behind a dune and covered it up with sand. Hence there is no sewer movement in CMAK.

[Kobal2]

Sewer movement is just what is says : moving inf units through the sewers

Exists only in CMBB, and even there has restrictions : only possible from one big heavy building to another, very slow, and 10% chance of death for each squad member. You don't get shot at, though.

[Sergei]

And has to be allowed for each side in the scenario parameters, not possible otherwise.

[yacinator]

Ok , thx for the help.

[yacinator]

Just another little question : why is it only in CMBB? I'm sure that they had sewers in the Mediterranean theater too , so why not put it in CMAK? Currently I have an ongoing pbem where I'm defending as Italians, in a town, East Africa, where I was forced to withdraw my troops from my right flank. Most of his platoon is in light buildings and there's a tall heavy building behind them with a routed squad in it. I'd love to move (through sewers) a MMG and a pioneer squad in there and [EVILLAUGHTER] catch em in the open ground when they're advancing in my old positions and when they take cover inside buildings my mighty Roman Legionares would use their TNT.[/EVILLAUGHTER]

[Pzman]

Even if it was in CMAK it wouldn't help you much in that case. You can only move troops between heavy buildings with sewer movement.

[Sergei]

Sewer movement was added because of Stalingrad where it was used. I don't know if that was the case in Italy. And even in CMBB I haven't ever used it/had a chance to use it, because it has to be enabled from scenario parametres by the designer, and because it is quite dangerous.

[Kobal2]

I've used it once, very successfully, to assault an ennemy position with two MG squads. The building was held by a HMG and two rifle squads, which were promptly slaughtered by my boys.

[Falcon988]

Question. What is the 10% chance of death supposed to symbolize? I don't think it's very likely that slipping and falling in a few feet of sewage will kill you, even if that would be very gross. Is it the possibility of being caught by enemy infantry who throw a grenade down at you?

I've never used sewer movement before. Never really considered it as a tactical option. I do however recall a Stalingrad battle where my opponent used it to get behind my main attack and harrass my supply lines/reinforcements.

[Sergei]

Getting lost or not finding route/encountering an enemy patrol/booby trap/zombie ninja mummies eating your brains/being incapacitated by methane fumes (or men take a fag break at wrong time...)/alligators/the great flush/etc.

[von Paulus]

Of course there were fights in the sewers of Stalingrad : losses are possible if the troops encounters some enemy fire.

The main problem is that sewer movement is very long, so it takes lot of time in a scenario to achieve a successful and useful move.

[Joachim]

a) Not many sewers in East Africa during WW2.

You can get lost in sewers. Drown in holes in the floor. A sudden flood due to rainfall outside may wash you away. Booby traps inside or on exits. Sewers might collapse from the shockwave of arty or tanks travelling above. And several other ways to die.

c) I know somebody who escaped Berlin in April '45. He fled thru the sewers. Many did not want to go thru the sewers. Those all died. Read: Even if they exist many will still object or be unable to enter them even if their live depends on it.

Gruß

Joachim

[Paco QNS]

Just finished reading the spanish translation "Nápoles 1944", from the book

"Naples ’44 .An intelligence officer in the Italian labyrinth", 1978 by Norman Lewis.

There is related the following episode, in the pages 41 to 45:

"" 13 October (1943)

This week our activities have been prevented and even frustrated by false alarms and frights of every imaginable kind. Everyone whose activities separate from the usual established in the town is considered to be a spy, and we have been involved in endless useless searches. None of these night incursions has given any results. The supposed spies always were eccentric and inoffensive individuals.

( // ... //).

All that, comes to foment the incredulity, for what, when a few days ago we start receiving reports on some mysterious hammerings that were coming from the depths of the land we did not notice very much. But when yesterday the police of public italian safety (so sceptical as we) telephoned us to speak about the blows, adding that they have been heared even by a policeman of high range, we had to pay attention to the matter. It had been reported of hammering in very distant zones, all in the north part of the city. According to the theory of the police, endorsed by many rumors and certain credible evidence, a SS patrol had volunteered to remain in Naples after the retreat of the Germans and had concealed in the catacombs, wherefrom they might do a surprise incursion anytime. In case it was true, also there existed the possibility

that their plans were trumped and they had got lost in the darkness of an immense labyrinth of which only partial planes existed, and in which case, the blows might explain as an attempt of calling the attention in order that they were saved from their difficulty.

Only a small part of the catacombs -that are the biggest of Italy, and maybe of the world- is accessible to tourists, and the police had problems to find a former complete map of them. There was no way to know how reliable it was, since earthquakes on the past and collapses were sure to have happened. Nevertheless, the map was studied in relation to the emplacement of the places in which the blows had been heard and, being the widespread opinion that the Germans were there in someplace, it was assembled a force of approximately fifty men, formed by the Italian police, the body of American counterespionage and we themselves, to enter the catacombs and to explore them.

Of both networks of catacombs that exist in Naples, the principal one, which was the one that was worrying us, has the entrance on the posterior part of San Gennaro's church. It is believed that they date back to the 1st century and consist of four galleries, excavated one under other one, and each of which has numerous ramifications and lateral alleys. The two lower galleries had sunk partially and had not been accessible in the modern epoch.

It was decided to enter the catacombs soon after the dawn and we come to the church in twelve jeeps, splendidly supplied with equipment of espeology, besides the service weapons. ((// ... //))

The Americans were taking lamps as reflectors in miniature; they were shining in the walls of the anterooms that we cross up to coming to the galleries, ((// ... //)). Questioned over the possibility of the presence of Germans in the catacombs, the monk had answered in an evasive and suspicious form. Soon it became evident that we were looking for a needle in a haystack. We were crossing alleys crammed with bones with innumerable lateral diversions, each of them with many dark chambers, in any of which the Germans might have hidden, or might jump suddenly on us if still alive.

If really they had hidden themselves in the catacombs (and we all remained convinced of that), they must have been in the dark almost fifteen days since the batteries of the lanterns had died. After which, they would have been made to go by touch or they would have crawled among the bones, confronting frightful dangers. In the second gallery we come suddenly to a dark abyss. The lights allowed us to see the bottom, where the soil had sunk from wall to wall, a heap of powder of which some ancient nervures were standing out. We lowered a microphone in the hole and listened while the monk was grumbling to our backs, but the silence below was absolute.

We resign the search and return. It was two days since the last informs of blows and, despite the starvation that they would were in, it was very strange that the force had left the men so suddenly up to the point of which we couldn´t hear a shout nor a groan. The widespread opinion was that the monk knew more than he was ready to say. The commissioner of police suggested that there existed the possibility that he had entered the catacombs and rescued the Germans. Be as it will be,

it is slightly improbable that we manage to know ever. ""

Since it´s a retranslation, I beg pardon to the late Mr Lewis

Obituary: Norman Lewis Thursday, July 24, 2003

any misspellings and errors are mine, and not his. I include also the spanish translation (for the languages-grogs).

((Credits to Angela Pérez Gómez, translater:

"" 13 de Octubre

Esta semana nuestras actividades se han visto obstaculizadas e incluso frustradas por falsas alarmas y sustos de todo género imaginable. Todo aquel cuyas actividades se aparten de alguna forma de las pautas de normalidad establecidas por el municipio es considerado un espia, y nos hemos visto implicados en interminables búsquedas inútiles. Ninguna de estas incursiones nocturnas ha dado resultados. Los supuestos espías siempre eran individuos excéntricos e inofensivos.

(//...//).

Todo esto viene a fomentar la incredulidad, por lo que, cuando hace unos días empezamos a recibir informes sobre unos misteriosos golpeteos que llegaban de las profundidades de la tierra no hicimos mucho caso. Pero cuando ayer la policía de seguridad pública italiana (tan escéptica como nosotros) nos telefoneó para hablar de los golpes, añadiendo que los había oído incluso un policía de alto rango, no nos quedó más remedio que prestar atención al asunto. Se había informado del golpeteo en diferentes zonas muy distantes unas de otras en la parte norte de la ciudad. Según la teoría de la policía, respaldada por muchos rumores y cierta evidencia verosímil, una patrulla de SS se había ofrecido voluntaria para quedarse en Nápoles tras la retirada de los alemanes y se había ocultado en las catacumas, de donde podría hacer una incursión sorpresa en cualquier momento. En caso de que fuera cierto, también existía la posibilidad de que sus planes hubieran fallado y se hubieran perdido en la oscuridad de un inmenso laberinto del que sólo existen planos parciales, y en cuyo caso, los golpes podrían explicarse como un intento de llamar la atención para que los salvaran de su apuro.

Sólo una pequeña parte de las catacumbas -que son las más grandes de Italia, y tal vez del mundo- es accesible a los turistas, y la policía había tenido problemas para encontrar un antiguo plano completo de las mismas. No había modo de

saber hasta que punto seguía siendo preciso después de los daños causados por los temblores de tierra del pasado y los hundimientos que estaban seguros de que habían causado. Sin embargo, el plano se estudió en relación con el emplazamiento de los lugares en que se habían oído los golpes y, siendo la opinión generalizada que los alemanes se encontraban allí en algún sitio, se reunió una fuerza de unos cincuenta hombres formada por la policía italiana, el cuerpo de contraespionaje americano y nosotros mismos, para entrar en las catacumbas y explorarlas.

De las dos redes de catacumbas que hay en Nápoles, la principal, que era la que nos preocupaba a nosotros, tiene la entrada por la parte posterior de la iglesia de San Gennaro. Se cree que datan del siglo I y consisten en cuatro galerias, excavadas una debajo de la otra, y cada una de las cuales tiene numerosas ramificaciones y pasadizos laterales. Las dos galerías inferiores se habían hundido parcialmente y no habían sido accesibles en la época moderna.

Se decidió entrar en las catacumbas poco después del amanecer y llegamos a la iglesia en doce jeeps, espléndidamente pertrechados con el equipo de espeología habitual, además de las armas reglamentarias. ((//...//))

Los americanos llevaban lámparas como reflectores en miniatura; brillaban en las paredes de las antesalas que cruzamos

hasta llegar a las galerías, ((//...//)). Interrogado acerca de la posibilidad de que hubiera alemanes en las catacumbas, el

monje había contestado de forma evasiva y sospechosa. Pronto se hizo evidente que estábamos buscando una aguja en un pajar.

Recorríamos pasadizos atestados de huesos con innumerables desviaciones laterales, cada una de ellas con muchas cámaras oscuras, en cualquiera de las cuales podrían haberse escondido los alemanes, o de las que podrían saltar súbitamente sobre nosotros si aún estaban vivos. Si realmente se habían ocultado en las catacumbas (y todos seguíamos convencidos de que así era), debían de llevar a oscuras casi quince días desde que se les habían acabado las pilas de las linternas. Tras lo cual, se habrían abierto paso a tientas o se habrían arrastrado entre los huesos, afrontando peligros espantosos. En la segunda galería llegamos súbitamente a un abismo oscuro. Las luces nos permitieron ver el fondo, donde el suelo se había hundido de pared a pared, un montón de polvo del que sobresalían algunas nervaduras antiguas. Hicimos oscilar un micrófono en el

agujero y escuchamos mientras el monje rezongaba a nuestras espaldas, pero el silencio abajo era absoluto.

Renunciamos a la búsqueda y regresamos. Hacía dos días que habían informado por última vez de los golpes y, por muy cerca de la inanición que estuvieran, era muy extraño que la fuerza hubiera abandonado a los hombres tan súbitamente hasta el punto de que no pudiéramos oír ni un grito ni un gemido. La opinión generalizada era que el monje sabía más de lo que estaba dispuesto a decir. El comisario de policía sugirió que existía la posibilidad de que hubiera entrado en las catacumbas y hubiera rescatado a los alemanes. Sea como fuere, es poco probable que lleguemos a saberlo. ""

[With Clusters]

That's hillarious, in a horrible sort of way...

[Holman]

I think we're lucky that sewer movement has not been abused by scenario designers. It's in the CMBB engine only to accomodate those very rare situations (Stalingrad, Warsaw, Berlin, maybe a few other big cities) where such movement was possible *and potentially likely*. It is, and should be, very uncommon in scenarios.

I've never heard of what we would call sewer movement being a factor in any battle west of the Elbe.

Howeverm, in certain circumstances, could sewer movement serve to simulate "mouseholing" through heavy walls?

Finally: I'm sure I'm not the only one who has dreamed up a weird and utterly ahistorical "sewer race" scenario...

[Paco QNS]

The CMBB´s "sewer movement" represents the subterranean movement-and-combat, historically associated with the sieges (and long term urban-combat). That means a long struggle inside a city.

No sieges, no need of "sewer movement".

It also requires subterraneans passages, either sewers, water conducts, catacombs, wine-cellars, or even secret passages (common in jewrys, old towns and castles). Most of them existed -and even exist today- in a lot of old towns builded by the classic romans, both in Italy and in the north of Africa (speaking of the theater of operations of CMAK).

I see the need of it for "what-if" ops, such as a Cairo/Rome/Naples last defense.

On a related matter, mine-and-countermines are absent from CM, in the "tunnel mine" variant. According to this source, though, they were used in the russian front:

The Origins of Military Mines: Part I By Major William C. Schneck

Tunnel mining has continued sporadically into the modern era and was used by Napoleon at Acre (1799), the Crimean War (Sevastopol),25 General Grant's men in the American Civil War (Vicksburg26 and Petersburg27), the Russo-Japanese War (Port Arthur28), World War I (Western Front29 and the Isonzo Front30), World War II (Russian Front31), and the French-Indochina War (Dien Bien Phu32). Most recently, the Peruvians used tunnel mines to liberate hostages held in the Japanese ambassador's residence in Lima. The North Koreans may use them in the future--some of their tunnels have been discovered under the demilitarized zone (DMZ) and more are suspected.

31 Small Unit Actions During the German Campaign in Russia, CMH Pub 104-22, Center of Military History, Washington, D.C., Facsimile edition 1988, pages 165-168). The "Blitzkrieg" oriented German Army of WWII maintained special "Minier Pioniere" units throughout the war (Pioniere, Entwicklung einer Deutschen Waffengattung, by Dietrich Petter, Wehr und Wissen Verlagsgesellschaft MBH, Darmstadt, Germany, 1963, page 245). The British and Canadians are retained this type of unit during WWII.

((Yes, I can imagine the possible "wildly use" could be made of this "tunnel-mines", but in the Spanish Civil War they were used quite extensively -in Toledo and Teruel (certainly), and in Oviedo and Madrid (if I´m not mistaken)- . So, if there is a wish-list for CM2, please add the "tunnel-mines to it, please! ))

[JonS]

Originally posted by Sergei:

... /the great flush/etc.

Sounds like a job for Raiders Of The Lost General Forum Archives.