UK inf vs the tank

[Cabe Booth]

I have noticed that in late war battles my UK infantry selections have not AT capability. Unless they come with a PIAT squad. How do Iuse the inf against a a tank. Seems that when my armor and At are wiped out or otherwise occupied my infantry are at the mercy of the most lumbersome of tanks. Is there no way to assault a tank using UK 44 rifle squads? Or do Ihave to use the PIAT? Seems to me that there would be some selection in late war that could deal with a tank if it could get close enough.

Am I just not looking in the right spot when selecting my troops or am I limited to what I see?

[patboy]

Use the PIAT, Red Devil at Arnhem have knocked out

some Kingtiger II with it !

Pat

[JonS]

You should be able to at least IMMOB tanks just with grenades, but it's challenging to do that deliberately.

[Cabe Booth]

i am just suprised the lack of at satchels or sticky bombs..... anything.... on late war UK troops

[JonS]

Yes. It's wrong, but there it is. A search in the archives (on in this particular sub-section of the forum) will show it's been discussed before.

It won't be changing, so you just have to deal with it.

[flamingknives]

You can get assault pioneer sections who have satchel charges.

The real solution is combined arms. 6pdrs are fairly cheap, small and really quite capable anti-tank weapons.

IIRC, most, if not all, UK infantry section come with PIAT teams. Late war and regular bns have flamethrowers too. Not good for too much but can mess tanks about at inf AT range.

PIATs have their strengths, mainly by remaining unspotted until at least the second bomb and firing from buildings without penalty. Plus they're pretty effective against what they can hit.

[Cabe Booth]

yes, i actually killed a pzIIIj in my current game with a PIAT, but he is out of ammo. The my mustange dropped a bomb and blew up 2 more pIII's and a kublewagon and god knows what else. have not seen the plane come back in a long time, would be nice to get those 5 strafing runs I was promised.

(the move of the bombing run is a hoot if you want to see it.

All my at guns I keep having to ferry around the map and can never get a good angle to fire without getting waxed during setup time, what is a really good UK/US at weapon that can handle stugs and medium armor and even have a chance of giving a big cat a bad gun, track or shock it? Is the 6 pounder a very mobile gun? I know it can give a tiger a knock on the head and can be moved by a jeep or Universal carrier, but dang, getting the angle with out being spotted b4 setting up. I have also used flamethrowers to my advantage. I really need o buy more piats and fast moving transports. The archer is nice gun, but it doesn't hide very well, the Achilles packs a whallop, but just like a wolverine like to explode on contact with pillows and small furry woodland creatures. Right now my only armor unit left is a firefly, and he is a freaking green unit trying to deal with 3 stugs on over watch. i have at gun 17 pounders set up, but they get no love and moving them is a biatch and then the setup time (5 mins).

is the a really mobile AT or AA gun that can be pushed and keep itself a low profile?

[flamingknives]

6pdr is as good as it gets for towed AT. It'll take on Stugs, PzIIIs and PzIV from any angle and will upset the big cats from the side.

The trouble with towed guns is that they are slow to move and set up - they are a defensive piece. Which is why the SP guns like Archer and Achilles were developed.

My personal favourite Stug killer is the Valentine with a 6pdr gun. It's either the MkIX or MkX, as the earlier mark doesn't get a coaxial MG.

What sort of game are you playing?

[Cabe Booth]

meeting engagement, i think my big problem is that though my at and troops are crack, i went green with my firefly's to get more of them. should have bought a Churchill with thick armor and some valetines...... never tried them, hows the armor?

[flamingknives]

The armour on the Valentine isn't particularly thick, but they are cheap. About half the cost of a Firefly and they don't attract as much attention. The HE is pretty poor and they don't carry much MG ammo. I tend to keep them with the infantry to fix enemy armour, then use better and more mobile AT, like Fireflies, plain Shermans and Tank Destroyers, to flank and destroy.

Combined arms tactics are the key.

I always find crack troops to be tricky to get the most out of, as there is so little room for error.

Plus towed AT is not good for a Meeting engagement unless you can

A) Set up in cover with good fields of fire

Advance to forward positions without the enemy seeing and get him as he comes past.

C) Draw the enemy on to your prepared AT positions.

Even the SP AT aren't supposed to be used to advance while firing. They're meant to take up a firing position quickly and then defend it.

Multiple Fireflies are a dicey investment. They've got a good gun but can't slug it out with anything, unlike the German heavies which can take a few hits. I don't often take more than 50% Fireflies since you get more 75mm tanks for your points and you can use them for anything but taking on the heavies. Plus more than that is ahistorical.

[Joachim]

You are not promised 5 strafing runs. The plane has enough ammo for up to 5 strafing runs. But if it received some incoming it might be damaged or just too scared to risk another run for the little damage the strafing is realistically expected to do.

Crack inf or ATG is usually way too much. Vets will do. If you want an extra punch, carefully examine and use your HQs for the bonus. E.g. a vet ATG with a +1 bonus combat HQ will hit like a crack ATG. A vet inf plt with a good bonus HQ will act almost like a crack plt.

Green tanks react too slow. If you use them as mobile arty behind your inf, it doesn't matter much. But if you want them as AT assets, I'd suggest you buy at least regular tanks - if it ain't for the challenge.

Gruß

Joachim

[Redwolf]

It's too bad that CMAK removed the AT grenades (some of) the British infantry squads had in CMBO.

I think the CMBO setup was better, more realistic and tactically more interesting.

In 1944 you don't just take your tank and roll over some infantry. By then they learned to keep one toy or another to hurt you in the tin can.

[Cabe Booth]

well i am getting rolled over right now and all my crack inf can do is run away, from a couple of stugs. My green firefly just looks at the gun as it crosses its field of fire and the at guns are not getting any angles cuz he is staying in over watch positions. I am kinda screwed

now if the plane came back.....

[JasonC]

First, infantry with no special AT weapons can kill tanks. The recipe is, you need to be stationary and in good order with the tank within 35 meters for a full 30 seconds. Higher quality will sometimes get it off in 15-20, but 30 is the time to plan on.

You will see thrown grenades but it is actually a close assault routine. Some will say "Hit", some won't. "Hit" will immobilize about 40-45% of the time and kill about an equal chance, with the remaining 10-20s being the dread "no significant damage".

In practice, the need to not be suppressed allows these attacks when the enemy crawls close to you and you are stationary and hidden. Or when the tank you are going after is low on or out of ammo. You should not leave cover to try to get such an attack. You can move to the edge of cover to get the range - sneak is the best movement speed. A "net" of 3-4 squads or HQs are more likely to get off 1-2 attacks than a single unit, simply because they will cover enough ground with their 35m range footprint.

Now, second, the Brit infantry AT method is not that (available to everyone), but the PIAT. You shouldn't have to buy many of them, every platoon comes with one. They are effective to 125m - at longer ranges the hit chance falls significantly. If you have enough you can lob them at 150 or so. They have the penetrating power of a bazooka and are perfectly adequate against StuGs. Panthers and Jagds need flanks and Tigers are difficult even with flanks.

Third, all infantry AT is a marginal defense weapon behind the main defense, which is heavy AT hitters. On defense that can be gun lead, on offense the vehicle mounts are typically more effective. But it is worth learning to use guns on the attack, it is a very useful skill. It is also absolutely necessary to learn how to use armor that is not invulnerable to enemy AT fire. One because nothing fully is, two because only spoiled rotten habitual German players haven't figured it out.

For the Brits the gun portion, late war, means 6 pdrs and 17 pdrs. 6 pdrs need flanks against things much like PIATs. If they have APDS ammo they can kill stuff considerably heavier without flanks (notably Tiger Is). But typically the amount of that is limited - not all guns, one engagement each stuff. The right prime mover is the universal carrier - it is armored, small, and speedy off road.

You don't need a carrier for every gun. A couple will serve. Guns only move in known dead ground. Move to the back side of the cover you intend to use, with that cover cutting LOS to known enemy entirely. Scattered trees that are thick enough work particularly well, as you can drive the carrier right into the trees.

Drop the gun and push it into position. Do not try to position actually in LOS with the carrier. The 6 pdr can move through 15-30m in a minute or two (respectively) and set up in a couple more. Do not push all the way to the front of the cover - it will just get you spotted prematurely. Once in position, put on a short armored covered arc to avoid firing at infantry and revealing your position, and to wait for the right side angle vs. armor.

Guns need to be positioned in the first 10 minutes or so of a typical meeting engagement. Expect to move them once or maybe twice, never more. You can move them to a spot you know will be free of enemy early. But typically minutes 5-10 are a better time for the "real" move, as your infantry scouts will know a lot more by then, about how the battle is developing and where it will be wanted.

You can't go by current spotting reports alone. You have to think 5 minutes ahead. The rest is LOS analysis and correctly predicting where the enemy armor will try to move. You can also entice enemy armor forward by "skulking" with its chosen targets or using a piece of light armor as "bait". You want the enemy to need to come forward to get LOS to you. Draw him onto the guns. If he doesn't come, he doesn't hurt you much either.

Cross the LOS of 2 guns to get flank shots and to make a shot for one or the other much more likely. You can expect 2 cheaper guns and a mover to tangle with a tank when used right. You can't expect every cheap gun to regularly take out multiple tanks. Constantly remember that the edge any gun has over a tank is its superior stealth, using cover to set up unseen and firing from ambush.

As for 17 pdrs, they are much larger and heavier guns, really meant for a stationary defender in an attack or assault scenario. They will kill whatever they can see, though.

As for armor, the Achilles and Sherman Firefly are both extremely powerful tank killers. If you aren't getting good performance out of them it is because you suck. Flat out, that is the truth (as of yet, of course - you can change it easily). Needing invulnerable armor to live is a sign of someone who hasn't learned anything about armor tactics yet. The standard thing is that the guy who gets first shot gets the kill, with some coin toss luck thrown in.

How do you get first shot? Superior intel, knowing where they are before they know where you are. That comes from cautious driving and scouts out, usually the infantry. Armor uses cover, it uses it to block LOS to most of the field, picking the spots it wants to see when there is something is wants to shoot. Hide behind buildings to allow a short move to create or remove LOS.

Next, distract the intended target. Wait for the shot, meaning delay establishing LOS at all until he is facing the wrong way or otherwise engaged. If he isn't otherwise engaged, you don't have to kill him this instant, do you? Isolate the intended target by "keyhole" LOS from your shooter, by smoking his friends. If you must engage frontally, do so "many on few", going after the foremost with 2 or more e.g.

Avoid green quality for serious armor. For an "HE chucker" meant only to blast infantry it is OK, though you really don't save many points and the longer command delays can be a problem. But with AT duel armor it is much worse. Lower qualities will "cower" from enemies that can KO them. This is especially pronounced if you try to use the "hunt" movement command. If you have to use lower unit quality AT duel armor, use shoot and scoot or fast move into LOS.

Last, a point about StuGs vs. infantry. StuGs have quite limited ammo for infantry killing. The best MG gets 48 shots, many types have only 24. They typically have the HE for 3-4 minutes of full barrage fire. A single StuG can readily mess up a whole infantry platoon - but assuming they are in cover, it will run dry in the process. And bits of said platoon will rally, the StuGs ammo will not.

[Other Means]

Use a Churchill XI as your front runner backed by a vet Achillies platoon.

The Churchill can take out all the StuG's and PzIV's you like, plus it has the MG ammo to dominate any infantry battles. Keep it out of Shrek range though.

Your opponent will bring out his big cats to try and take him out and you should have your Achillies in overwatch to answer.

No guarantees but it's a fun armour mix.

[John Kettler]

Cabe,

Seeing as how the Firefly is the single most potent British tank when it comes to fighting German armor,

it is profoundly ill advised to make that relatively scarce unit, typically one per four tank troop, of low morale. If ever there was a place where you want sharp people with fast reflexes and high ROF,

that's it. Remember, that while the gun's nasty,

the tank's still a vanilla Ronson eggshell with hammer when compared to the heavier German armor

ending with "anther" and "iger."

Regards,

John Kettler

[Cabe Booth]

Well, in most PBEM games I choose to play UK. I guess because as people have stated it does make one more careful and explore strategy. Mu knowledge of UK units was pretty much limited to thier names before I started playing this game. I have always been more of a ww2 plane buff than a ground unit scholar. Have learned much in doing so, and yes it can get frustrating when best laid plans still don't stop the axis beast.

One of my big mistakes and definitely a learning experience was to purchase some "green" armor units. This just made them worthless. I and that isn't an understatement. My opponent went with stugs which gave him more units and I can bet you that he gave them at least "regular" veterancy. Even without the benefit of a turret they have cleaned me up. I also, spent money on some crack 17 pounders wich is a mistake I continue to make. I guess I keep gambling on flat open terrain and getting burned. Having read what you all have to say I am sure my next battle will go a bit better against the Axis. I am interested to experiment with the valentine and variations of churchills. The fireflys might be put on the back burner for a few battles, unless we have a lot of points to spend. But all in all I will never buy anything below a "regular" AFV again. Thanks all.

[Aco4bn187inf]

If terrain permits, you can also use 37mm Staghound or Greyhound armoured cars to race up beside or behind Stugs or PzIV's, Marders, etc. and shoot some holes in them.

I like to do this in towns, where the roads allow full use of the vehicles' high speed, and buildings hide their approach.

Use your infantry to observe and assess the set up first, of course.

[Cabe Booth]

I actually did do a test run one night against a panther a tiger and a stug.

i took 2 fireflys, 3 greyhounds and 2 stuarts

The fireflys got waxed going toe to toe while the greyhounds and stuart raced in the open past the Axis tanks As they passed, the guns of the 2 big cats couldn't keep up with the pace of the greyhounds, the stuarts got nailed. The stug had a hard time rotating of course.

As the greyhounds made a pass they were able to immobilize the panther and then get behind a church, from there they popped the stug from the side at it was still rotating

. When the big cats made a full trurret turn to my hidden location I took the greyhounds and swept around on both sides of the church. The axis tanks both starting tracking the first greyhound in view so it got assssploded.

The other 2 made it and since the panther couldn't move it was even slower to rotate with the greyhound.

Long story short the greyhound were able to take out 2 big cats and a stug, but they needed distraction and luck.

........and very close range

When trying this in PBEM with 3 stuart V against a panther I had buildings make me slow to turn and make my pass while German panzerfausts were firing out of ever window. Only stuart made it to the panther, fired got track hit that did nothing at a range of aroun 10 feet. Then the magic panther gun made the stuart go to heaven with grandpa

a good swarm of cheap stuarts, staghound or greyhound is an excellent backup, but the timing has to be perfect, the presence of AT infantry hiding around the tank doesn't help at all either. Its a gamble like all buying strategies.

[Aco4bn187inf]

I share your assessment of this method, Cabe. It definitely makes the game dramatic, tho. How did the Tiger you mentioned get killed, by the way?

It's fun to kill your opponent's armor with 'wimpy' assets like light vehicles. Last time I did this was to eliminate an over-agressive Stug when the German's infantry was already beat up and fleeing.

[John Kettler]

Cabe,

In fairness to the Germans, I should note that the game doesn't let their AFVs pivot turn worth a hoot,

when they could and did quickly in real life. This creates an artificial combat advantage.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Cabe Booth]

It has been about 2 weeks but I am pretty sure the tiger went down with either rear turret penetration (no fire) or an engine hit that just knocked it out. There were some hits that caused internal flaking, and I can pretty much assume that was a rear turret hit, it may have just been crew casualties from flaking that got them out of the tank. The Panther died from full penetration to the rear, I do remember that. What would make this all clearer to me is if I could remember if greyhound load out with tungsten in late war battles. Seems to me that it wasn't. Basically I swarmed them and poked them to death like a bunch Lilliputians. I will say that iw was at extremely close range, this helped even more with the tiger bnot being able to traverse with my movement. AT all times it was very touch and go and had a great deal of luck. But If you know what you are doing and your opponent has told his tiger to blast away at some building with area fire, you can get away with murder for about 60 seconds. But you have to have a crystal ball to know that, but the swarm does work, just to many factors can screw it up.

Hi John,

I didn't know that that the big cats could traverse quickly in RL or that they slowed them down for the game. I thought they got the gun on target by rotating the tank with the turret towards the target to give it extra speed, but what do I know, most of my knowledge of tiger turret speed comes from watching Kelly's Heros over and over.

Did you know that the best way to beat a tiger is to offer him a business deal involving Nazi gold stashed in a nearby bank?

[Sergei]

Only if the said Tiger's fuel is already leaking.

[John Kettler]

Cabe,

Watch these to see what I'm talking about regarding how fast and tightly German AFVs could turn.

Panther

StuG III (early) Scary maneuverability!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIjhGoEBfKQ&mode=related&search=

StuG III

Tiger I

King Tiger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxVVgJGuCm4&mode=related&search=

StuH (pivot turning on dirt)

Hetzer

Jagdpanzer IV

Regards,

John Kettler

[Cabe Booth]

very nice, I will review in a few.

I love the glory of utube

I have 6 pbem games going on and they all have decided to start emailing me today at the same time. I feel like a switchboard operator

and I know it is off topic but if any of you have not played the scenario Sesto Imolese, do so a soon as possible. Play the Germans and you will have quite a bit of fun. well balanced map and the load out is fun as well. Has reinforcements that make you very happy. Germany vs NZ