engineers vs. pioneers

[yacinator]

can somebody tell me the diffrence between engineers and pioneers

[Holman]

None, except that Engineers speak American.

[yacinator]

yeah but australians have engineers AND pioneers

ps

can somebody tell me which bmps r palm trees i'm trying to make a coconut mod

[Tero]

Engineers build, pioneers demolish.

[Bastables]

Engineers and Pioneers

In commonwealth armies

Pioneers: Infantry Corp soldiers trained in combat engineering skills. Their job takes place mostly at the sharp end, are usually integral to Infantry battalions.

Engineers: Separate Corp to the infantry, jobs tend to be at the blunt end, building roads, bridges, pillboxes, docks, messes, barracks etc.

[yacinator]

thanks i thought bfc made a mistake with the aussies

[JonS]

The Aussies are a bit different again.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bastables:

Engineers and Pioneers

In commonwealth armies

Pioneers: Infantry Corp soldiers trained in combat engineering skills. Their job takes place mostly at the sharp end, are usually integral to Infantry battalions.

Engineers: Separate Corp to the infantry, jobs tend to be at the blunt end, building roads, bridges, pillboxes, docks, messes, barracks etc.

Good explanation, however, I don't know that Infantry pioneers did stuff "mostly" at the sharp end. They did a lot of construction work also and their numbers in an infantry battalion were small - just 20 men under an officer according to one Canadian source. I think CM represents them by two squads?

As a point of trivia, Pioneers in Commonwealth infantry units are usually the only ones allowed to grow beards, a tradition never satisfactorily explained to me. The rationale for other soldiers (save those with a skin condition that precludes them shaving) not growing beards is that they interfere with the seal of the gas mask.

Members of the RE, RCE, etc. didn't, as far as I know, have permission to grow beards.

[mike8g]

Quite easy in German language:

"Pioniere" for all.

Marcus

[Holman]

yeah but australians have engineers AND pioneers

That's because Australians speak a weird kind of hybrid of American AND English.

[Ant]

can somebody tell me which bmps r palm trees i'm trying to make a coconut mod

Are you doing a pacific theatre mod? Because I'm sure some botany grog will be along soon to tell you that there aren't any coconuts in North Africa

[Sitzkrieg]

Maybe he's suggesting coconuts migrate?

[flamingknives]

Can't resist...

Perhaps it was carried by a swallow?

[Michael Emrys]

European or African?

(I couldn't either.)

Michael

[guachi]

A "pioneer" is someone who has raised lots of money for George Bush, like $100,000+ (really!)

And an engineer is someone who thinks he is a scientist.

Jason

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by yacinator:

yeah but Australians have engineers AND pioneers

In the Australian Army, Pioneers are organic (part of) to an Infantry Bn and form a Platoon in Support Company. They are RAINF soldiers who are trained in minor engineering tasks and are used to complete minor tasks for the Bn (such a digging the Bn CP, etc.) they have little plant and equipment other than hand tools.

They give the Bn a small capability so it can do some tasks by itself without requesting external support (similar to the Mortar Pl providing some indirect fire support rather than the Bn having to always request Artillery support).

Engineers belong to a different Corps (RAE) and form their own Regt. They also come in two forms (Combat and Construction). A modern day Inf Bde usually has three Inf Bn’s and a Combat Engineer Regt (CER).

A CER has plant (bulldozers, trucks, graders, etc.) and does major tasks within the Bde AO (building an Anti Tank ditch, creating obstacles, etc.). In Offensive Operations they conduct mobility tasks such as clearing minefields, reducing enemy obstacles, bridging etc.). The CER will be tasked to support say the two forward Bn’s and the Bde obstacle plan in a Bde defensive position, while the depth Bn may have “to fend for itself“ in terms of developing its position.

Construction Regts do tasks along the lines of communications such as building, improving existing bridges, replacing assault bridges with permanent ones, etc. Construction Regts usually belong to Div or higher.

So Pioneers do initial small tasks whilst Engineers do major works (just like you might be happy to change the oil in your car but you’d probably ask a mechanic to change the engine).

[ April 04, 2004, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: gibsonm ]

[yacinator]

ok thx for the help

[GoofyStance]

Originally posted by Ant:

You rang? It's not likely one would find the common coconut palm Cocos nucifera in North Africa. The original range of this species of palm was mainly in a band 20 degrees north and south of the Equator (Cairo being about 30 degrees North), but human cultivation has resulted in the coconut palm's spread from the pan-tropical regions into other areas of the world, including India (circa 300 BC) and east and west Africa (the latter around 1500 AD). Coconut palms prefer warm, humid climes and do not tolerate freezing temperatures, so they'd not survive the winter nights in North Africa.

Couldn't resist, either

[JonS]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by yacinator:

yeah but Australians have engineers AND pioneers

In the Australian Army, Pioneers are organic (part of) to an Infantry Bn and form a Platoon in Support Company. ...</font>

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gibsonm:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by yacinator:

yeah but Australians have engineers AND pioneers

In the Australian Army, Pioneers are organic (part of) to an Infantry Bn and form a Platoon in Support Company. ...</font>

[JonS]

By-the-by, and I think it's probably outside the scope of the original question, the British actually had a Pioneer Corps as a seperate, distinct entity to the Royal Engineers. The P-Corps provided "a fighting force that could provide a disciplined body of highly skilled labour, also able to share in the fighting when the need arose..." They were organised into roughly battalion sized groups.

As a specific example, on D-Day (6 Jun 44, lest anyone be confused with one of the other D-Days) there was a P-Corps force in each Beach Group. Their tasks included: clearing mines, clearing underwater obstacles, unloading landing craft, building ammo and other dumps, helping to construct beach tracks for vehicles to firm ground, helping to collect and evacuate wounded, collecting and burying the dead, guarding POWs, and when necessary fighting.

They also seem to have been responsible for recruiting and controlling foreign civil labour personnel where applicable.

Regards

JonS

Details from Forty, The British Army handbook, 1939-45

[ April 05, 2004, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by guachi:

And an engineer is someone who thinks he is a scientist.

Jason

Engineers also tend to think that they're mechanics.

Gyrene

[Guest Mike]

Right oh - I was an "Assualt Pioneer" in my local infantry Bn, and as explained above we weer organic to the Bn, but our speciality was explosives work, not digging - so mines, counter-mine, booby trap setting and springing, light demolitions. Also some simple construction tasks such as small bridges for which we'd normally have riflemen as labour.

Also as mentioned above the British army has (had now I think - they've been recently disbanded or amalgamated) a Pioneer corps - but rather than "highly skilled" it was mostly seen as the lowest of the low. A friend of mine went to Sandhurst, graduated 6th in his class and volunteered for it - the was the highest ranked graduate the corps had ever had!! Usually they got only those graduates the other corps didn't want!

None of this is relevant to WW2 of course, but it's interesting!!

As for beards - Pioneers back in the old days (we're talking muskets here) used to lead the infantry, were equipped with axes and leather aprons (for clearing obstacles and protecting their uniforms), often wore bearskins and were used as assault troops - their beards were, IIRC, a mark of privilege for their elite status.