Some things I learned on my trip to France (now with pics!)

[Breakthrough]

Yes! Nice to keep us in mind on your trip. Very interesting stuff.

[ParaBellum]

Yep, great stuff, thx for posting!

[Runyan99]

Did an all day inland tour today, with a personal guide. Was supposed to be a "Hedgerow Tour", but we kind of did something else instead.

Nothing earth shattering to relate today. I can't say I had an epiphany on any sites. Basically, followed the path of the 29th Infantry Division from Grandcamp, through Isigny, the Aure, the Elle, and on to St. Lo. Visited the spot just east of town where Major Howie was probably killed. There is a small chapel there, where a Frenchman has set up a little "museum" dedicated to the veterans of the 29th and the 35th. I was lucky that he happened to be in, as his little museum is usually open for special events and groups. Also found the Chateau south of the Aure, where the first patrol from the 115th Regiment crossed the flooded estuary, and took a few prisoners. See Beyond the Beachhead by Bronikowski. This was one site my guide had never been to, and I told him a bit about it.

Also passed through and around Carentan again today. I didn't mention earlier, but that Band of Brothers episode is also slightly decieving, mainly in that E coy hit the Germans halfway through the town, at the rail line. The rail isn't visible in the episode. We know this because my guide ealier in the week matched up some period photos of buildings to the current site, and found the locations of a cafe, a factory, and another building at the rail line. Worth noting that the German defence was in the middle of town (at least on the southern flank) as per doctrine. I had envisaged that E coy hit the German defense on the edge of town, based on the movie.

British and Canadian highlight tour tomorrow. Then, I'm thinking of striking out on my own on Friday, perhaps to see Livigny, where Canadian tanks did a slow duel with 6 Panthers from the 12 SS. I've got a book about that with me. I'll do some more studying before I go.

Au revoir.

[Runyan99]

Oops. Terribly embarrasing. I leant to say Lingevres, where British tanks knocked out 6 Panthers from Panzer Lehr. I was there today just briefly, but I intend to go back tomorrow for a lengthy walk around. The size of the battle is ideal for a CM operation, and I may decide to tackle it when I get back. There are some very good pictures in The Panzers and the Battle of Normandy, if you happen to have that book.

Also planning a stop at the museum at Tilly-sur-Selles (if open), and maybe a quick stop at Villers-Bocage tomorrow.

Did a British/Canadian tour today. Pegasus Bridge, Gold, Juno, Sword, and the Hillman position. Missed the Merville battery. Hillman is quite a commanding position, and is worth a visit if you get the chance.

Au revoir.

[Lawyer]

I'm especially thankful and interested in your observations as I plan a 2-week vacation in the Normandy area during August. I'll rent a car and follow my various history and WWII guide books. My father and uncles were in the 29th, so I'm planning to use "Beyond the Beachead" as a guide like you did.

First question is what three or four towns would be best to use as a base of operations for day trips. Several folks recommend Bayeux, so that's on my list. Have you spotted any other cool looking towns that are large enough to have restaurants and shops, but not big enough to feel like you're trapped in a city? I'd like to find one inland in Oure and one in Haute Normandie. I want to stay away from the beach resorts.

You've given some great intel on the museums. Like you, I've read that Caen is good (although a peace-oriented war museum seems like a non-sequitur to me). Based on your report, I think I'll skip it. From touring the Battle of the Bulge area, I've found that local war museums can run from terrific to ho-hum. Seeing all of them takes too much time, so I like to know the best ones.

I also enjoy your reports on visiting some of the battle sites we read about. Do you have a short list of the really interesting ones and the ones that can be missed? Anything to report on Mortain, St. Lo, and Falaise? I fear that these are all re-built modern cities with little "feel" for what happened.

Finally, anything else special to see or do that you would recommend for somebody looking to blend war history with good eats and drinks and just hanging out? Please email me if you have useful info that doesn't fit here.

Thanks for your helpful reports.

Jake

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Runyan99:

Oops. Terribly embarrasing. I leant to say Lingevres, where British tanks knocked out 6 Panthers from Panzer Lehr.

[snips]

If you've been to Lingevres, the following may be of interest. It is transcribed verbatim from PRO document WO 171/336, 30 Corps "G" War Diary, 1944, Immediate Report No. 4. dated 17 Jun 44.

Other accounts of the Lingevres battle I believe appear in the 4/7th DG's regimental history "The First and the Last", and in a DLI regimental history which I sadly don't have a copy of.

All the best,

John.

- - - - - - - - cut here - - - - - - - -

Action of "A" Squadron, 4th/7th Dragoon Guards at LINGEVRES on 15th June, 1944

The Sqn were supporting 9 DLI in an attack across an open piece of ground and were to protect the village of LINGEVRES from a possible tk counter-attack while the inf re-organised.

The attack was preceded by aerial bombing and a Corps barrage and the movement across the open went according to plan with tk tps giving fire sp. The approach to the village lay through enclosed country and the infantry preceded the tks.

II Tp (Lt M.A.T. Trasenster) was soon in posn near the cross rds in the village with one tk SHQ (SL) close in rear. The situation in the village was a little obscure. There was quite a lot of shooting and there were enemy tks but they were difficult to spot. II Tp called for sp and 4th Tp (Lt A.Mc.L. Morrison) were sent up to help. In the meantime the 2 i/c of the Sqn (Capt J.D.P. Stirling) collected the two remaining tps and put them in a posn of observation on the western flank some 1000 yds NORTH of the village. The time was about 1130 hrs.

Phase I

II and IV Tps were watching the rds and at about 12 o'clock HE shells started landing in the centre of the village. The Comd of the Firefly tk on the TILLY SUR SEULLES rd was dismounted looking down the rd with a pair of binoculars from a vantage pt. He saw a tk 1000 yds away and it was a Sherman but as he watched it, it stopped and a Panther pulled out from behind and advanced on the village. At about a range of 800 yds our Firefly fired a round and stopped the tk but it did not catch fire. An inf patrol was able to shoot up the turret crew as they baled out and completed the destruction with a PIAT.

Meanwhile the inf had spotted an enemy tk in a field on the WEST side of the village. This tk pulled into a cartshed with its gun facing the opening pointing WEST. The inf a tk officer and the SL carried out a dismounted recce and got to within 50 yds of the Panther. They saw one of the crew outside the tk. They decided to put a PIAT on it from the front and the SL went to the rear of the barn which had brick walls, and shot it up from the rear. Unfortunately the armour on the front was too thick for the PIAT and the tk withdrew.

At about 1230 hrs another tk was seen coming down the TILLY SUR SEULLES rd and this again fell a victim to Sgt Harris at a range of about 600 yds. He waited until it had passed in front of the dead tk he had previously fixed and then fired and it caught fire at once. Sgt Harris at once altered his posn, backed down the road a little and charged over to the other side of the rd opposite the church. He then spotted what appeared to be a third German tk on the same rd, which had stopped directly behind the two dead ones. He could not fire directly at Sgt Harris and neither could Sgt Harris fire at him. However he started firing HE at the buildings in the rear of our tanks in the village. No damage was done as the crews all have one flap of the turret down. HEs started dropping close to the Troop Cpl's tank and he withdrew about 15 yards and waited. After about five minutes he went forward again to his previous position and spotted, at about 100 yards, the front quarter of a German tank. The crew fired AP and simultaneously the Germans replied and hit him, wounding all the crew except one. The gunner, Tpr Draper, who had not been wounded, traversed the turret in order to get the co-driver out, dismounted, collected a fire extinguisher, opened the co-driver's hatch, put out the fire which was starting in the gear box, and then returned to the turret and removed the unconscious driver. He evacuated the casualties to the church before the German tank returned very cautiously and put our Sherman completely out.

The situation after this eased and the German tanks pulled out. Infantry anti-tank guns were positioned and the troops were withdrawn from the cross roads area. The 2nd Troop Firefly was left facing the Western approach.

Results achieved

1. The village was now in the possession of the 9th D.L.I.

Anti-tank guns were in position.

2. Two German tanks had been killed for the loss of one of ours.

Phase II

By 1530 the order was received to try and rest the crews a little as the advance was to be resumed with a fresh bn at 1700 hrs. II and IV Troops, less the II Troop Firefly, were withdrawn to the area shown on the diagram and the rest of the Squadron was still kept in hand in the rear.

By about 1615 hrs firing started again, and there was quite a considerable volume of MG fire and a few rounds of HE. The bn were a little worried about the threat of tank counter attack and the Squadron was then disposed to deal with the threat. II and IV less their Fireflies remained in their field from where they could cover the village and artillery fire was put down along a line running East and West, South of the village. The acting bn Comdr told the S.L. that he had been informed that there were infantry attacking us too. The 2nd Troop Firefly then reported a Tiger tank coming down the road into the village from the West. He fired at a fairly long range but observation was poor and the flash from the gun which was firing with turret traversed at 6 o'clock, set fire to the camouflage net on the back. He pulled out under cover to put the fire out and was then ordered to take up position in an orchard North of the Westward approach to the village while the 4th Troop Firefly was moved to the position occupied by S.Ls tank in Phase I.

On receipt of the information from 2nd Troop, that a Tiger was coming down the road, the 2nd in Command and 5th Troop were ordered to carry out a movement to take up a position North of this road whence they might shoot the Tiger from the rear. Capt Stirling came up and spotted the turret of a Panther which was stationary on the road, and facing East. He moved into a hull down position and at about a range of 400 yards, put his gunner on to the target and put 3 rounds of 75mm AP quick into the enemy turret. It caught fire but the effect was better than could have been anticipated. The destruction of that tank acted just like a ferret in a rabbit hole. Within the space of two minutes three Panther tanks moved down the road West to East and as they passed, Sgt Harris shot them. He set the first one on fire.

The second one bypassed the blazing tank and was hit and moved out of vision. The third one was hit and exploded. When the smoke abated the second tank was seen near the church with the near sprocket blown off. The crew baled out.

Results

1. The Squadron destroyed six Panther tanks for the loss of one Sherman.

2. The Infantry had been helped on to their objective and with the help of the tanks, had repelled a counter attack and the village of LINGEVRES was still in our hands.

Conclusions

1. All the tanks were destroyed with A.P.

2. At 400 yards 75mm AP destroyed Panther - turret from the side.

3. These particular Panzers appeared to be very road-bound.

4. They made use of cartsheds to conceal tanks and their camouflage was excellent.

5. In this form of village fighting the man who moves about is the man who gets shot at.

Take up a good position and stay there.

[With Clusters]

Very interesting story! Those Panther crews seemed like they were awfully green...

[Andreas]

Unlikely. According to the 9th DLI history, they were from Panzerlehrdivision, which is generally held to be one of the best the Germans could field at this point in the war.

[With Clusters]

Sounds like the Dragoons new their business then. Why would the Panzers have been so road bound then?

[GRUMLIN]

Don't like French cheeses!! goodness me. try some different ones; you have probably been given the softer bries and goats cheeses (which I do not love myself); try getting some of the harder or blue stuff - kicks like a mule. You also need to eat it with today's bread, not yesterdays (as most table bread in small cafes will be).

cheers

Grum

[Runyan99]

John - Thanks for the report. I'll take a good look at it when I get back to the states. I'm still looking at the action for a static op. I did visit Lingevres, twice. The second time I went north of the town to find the start line of the D.L.I., and to learn the extent of the 'wood' north of town. I found that the 'wood' seems to be entirely missing these days, so I'm going to do a bit more research to see if I can figure out exactly where it was.

Grumlin - yes all I got in Nornandy were soft cheeses, mostly from the lowly goat. Maybe another region would serve better, harder cheeses, but I have only been to Normandy.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Runyan99:

I found that the 'wood' seems to be entirely missing these days, so I'm going to do a bit more research to see if I can figure out exactly where it was.

Hint: look for stumps.

Michael

[junk2drive]

stumps? is he the tour guide?

[Runyan99]

Lawyer - I found Bayeux was an excellent base for touring the area. It is small, equidistant (is that a word) to both the sights in the east and the west, and is full of good restaurants. I absolutely recommend it, with the only caveat being there is no night-life. That may not be a concern of yours.

My second recommendation would have been Arromanches, but you sound like you want to stay away from the seaside.

As far as sights to visit. Carentan is kind of a boring town, and there isn't much to see there war-related these days.

There is a bit to see in St. Lo, if you know what you are looking at. The intersection where the Cota task force came into town, and where they hung the flag on the H.Q., is now a roundabout, and does not look the same. There is a memorial to Major Howie there now. Just a block away from that point is the church, as it was in 1944, but missing its old spire (take along a comparison photo if you have one) where Maj. Howie's body was lain in memorial. Also right there is the cemetary, and the moseleum that they moved the HQ to. It looks the same. In fact, the day I was there, it was open, and I was able to walk down into the tomb, where the HQ was set up! There is a large sarcophogus inside, but the solid concrete brick construction is obviously a ready made bunker. A bit macabre, but not bad if you are under shellfire.

I found visiting these three sites brought St. Lo together for me, and was certainly worth a visit.

Another site I wouldn't miss in the U.S. sector is La Fiere as it is little changed from 1944.

There isn't much to see in Isigny, except the bridges, which are still pretty much the same.

If you go to Grandcamp, drive east of the town, and then approach the town coming west. The Germans were dug into the upward sloping ground coming into the village, overlooking a fair sized river valley. You can get a feel for the ground. There is a memorial to the Medal of Honor winner as you come into town. Look down and notice it is constructed on a MG 'Tobruk' position.

Between Isigny and St Lo, it is just a matter of driving through the country roads, trying to get a feel for the bocage. Take note of the Elle river valley. The river is pathetic, but the valley is quite large (miles). Don't be afraid to drive the really small back country roads. That is where you will find the best hedgerows.

The site of the field where the whole battalion was ambushed is somewhere just south and east of Lison. Very tough to show you where, unless you are guided there. My Belgian guide felt he knew where two of the Stugs were knocked out along the roads, and based his estimate of the field based on that. It is NOT where the monument is. If you find the monument, take the first road south from there (just a few yards away). Where the paved road bends to the left 90 degrees, the field should be on your right.

Didn't get inland to placed like Mortain or Falaise. My war ended at St. Lo, as it were. I might go back some day to see William the Conqueror's castle at Falaise.

Happy to share more later. I love to talk about my trip. If you have more specific questions just ask. We could do it by email, but post it here. Others may be contemplating a trip too.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Runyan99:

I found that the 'wood' seems to be entirely missing these days, so I'm going to do a bit more research to see if I can figure out exactly where it was.

Hint: look for stumps.

Michael </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Runyan99:

I found that the 'wood' seems to be entirely missing these days, so I'm going to do a bit more research to see if I can figure out exactly where it was.

Hint: look for stumps.

Michael </font>

[JonS]

hmm. Could you repeat that bit about Andreas being an imbecile again? I find it warms my heart in the middle of a southern winter to hear that kind of love.

[Runyan99]

I'm afraid I'm in England now, so I cannot go back to Lingevres any more to look for stumps.

All I saw were plowed and planted fields. I might guess that the wood(s) was/were burnt down to make room for more crops, but who knows. I'm still researching it now, as I can.

I picked up the 'Gold Beach' edition of the Battleground Europe series today. It has a chapter on Lingevres, and a rough sketch of the town showing a wood to the north west (not exactly where I expected it), but the dimensions are still a bit unclear. If I could go back again now I would, but all I can remember seeing over in that direction was more open fields.

There is another walk-around type series being published just now, called Battleground Normandy or something. Can't get my hands on one yet, but the Gold Beach edition of that series might also have a bit on Lingevres. I'm also emailing one of the guides I hired, who I think knows a bit more about the situation.

[Lawyer]

Excellent onsite report, R99. Yes, Bayeux seems the right kind of place for me. Do you have an opinion on whether Rouen is a useful place to spend a few days as a base?

Otherwise, I think I might move inland to Domfront or Allencon. The guide books say that area is pretty and off the beaten track.

Then I want to return to Paris via the Loire Valley. Anybody have opinions about Tours or Orleans? Any good smaller towns that have atmosphere around there? Also, is there a cool town near the CDG airport to stay for one night before I depart? I need a place that is close enough to drive to the airport in an hour or so, but I'd like to avoid spending my last night at an airport hotel.

BTW, I'll be in the Normandy area from August 14 to 28, so let me know if anybody will be close enough to meet for a drink or some battlefield touring.

Many thanks,

Jake

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Lawyer:

Anything to report on Mortain, St. Lo, and Falaise? I fear that these are all re-built modern cities with little "feel" for what happened.

Jake

Jake, the 1st Polish Armored Division met up with the American 90th Infantry Division in the village of Chambois. That may not be too large a town. The VC was won by Major David Currie at St. Lambert which is also very close to there. These were the places that the Falaise Pocket was closed.

Just a few ideas. I intend on doing a Normandy tour myself someday. These are on my list of places to see. I would also like to see for myself, "Barkmann's Corner", near Le Lorey.

Hope you have a great trip.

Panther Commander

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Runyan99:

All I saw were plowed and planted fields. I might guess that the wood(s) was/were burnt down to make room for more crops, but who knows.

If the woods were cleared for cropland, they would have gone to the trouble of removing the stumps too, I'm afraid. Bad luck.

Your only hope now is to find an accurate map and maybe some good air recon photos.

Michael

[BigDork]

Wow, thank you for the report Runyan. And thank you for making me feel like a total lazy SoB. I've been stationed in Germany for almost two years and haven't gone to see anything. That's gotta change.

Hopefully this summer I'll be able to make it around some and get some good pictures for everyone.

[Holien]

Hi Gents,

A nice thread and a interesting report posted by John Salt.

I went over there last year on the 6th of June and stayed in Bayuex. Absolutely the right place and great for food in the evenings after a hard day of bunker crawling.

Rouen is also a great place to stay and has heaps of Pre WWII History.

Bear in mind that, that area of France played a vital role in the development of British History around the period of 1066.

Also make time for some of the castles and older history as you will miss out on things more spectacular than WWII.

It is a funny fact that in 1066 we were invaded by ships launched from the area where we invaded in 1944.

Good hunting.

H

[Runyan99]

I got all of my photos developed the other day. Although I used disposable 35mm cameras, I had them put on to CDs also, so I have a digital copy too. When I get back home, I'll see about signing up for a picture hosting service, so I can post a few pics here. I'd like to share a few pics.

[Lawyer]

Originally posted by Runyan99:

I got all of my photos developed the other day. Although I used disposable 35mm cameras, I had them put on to CDs also, so I have a digital copy too. When I get back home, I'll see about signing up for a picture hosting service, so I can post a few pics here. I'd like to share a few pics.

We would love to see them. I bought my airline ticket this weekend (now I'm a POOR lawyer), and I'm getting psyched to go. I'm busy reading the WWII guidebooks and unit histories....

Whenever the next generation CM comes out for the Western Front, I'll be ready.

And yes, I enjoy the older history of Normandy too. Ya gotta love those monks who mixed God and good wine together in beautiful abbeys and cathedrals. Works for me.

Jake