Best of the best in the second world war

[_Axe_]

I thought it might be interesting to hear from other board members about who they think were the best -- in tactical terms -- in their respective fields in the Second World War.

Any service -- infantry, air force, navy, heck, even intelligence (Bletchley Park comes to mind) -- is open. Any nation too, whether it is from the major powers or the minor.

I thought the exploits of some of those who stood head and shoulders above their comrades in how they practised their craft would make for some good reading.

And since I suggested it:

My pick, for no other reason than the head-shaking factor of his achievements, is Hans Ulrich Rudel.

Rudel logged 2,530 combat missions, and was granted almost no leave throughout his four years of active duty. Unlike his Allied counterparts, there was no magical number of missions which would mean a furlough home, once attained. For Rudel, as well as for all German pilots, it was a matter of "fly and fight until the war ends, or you are killed": consequently, almost all eventually fell, and today only a tiny handful survive.

Rudel's personal victories as a ground-attack pilot were achieved exclusively against the Soviets, and despite the most primitive conditions imaginable, including operations solely from dirt, mud, and snow covered airfields, his confirmed victories (those witnessed by two or more fellow pilots) include:

* 518+ Tanks

* 700 Trucks

* 150+ Flak and Artillery positions

* 9 Fighter/Ground Attack Aircraft

* Hundreds of bridges, railway lines, bunkers, etc.

* Battleship October Revolution, Cruiser Marat, and 70 landing craft

Through direct action, he saved tens of thousands of German infantrymen from certain encirclement and annihilation during the long retreat which began in July 43 and lasted until the war's end, almost two years later.

* Shot down 32 times.

* Innumerable aircraft brought back to base that were later written off, due to heavy combat damage.

* Wounded on many occasions, including the partial amputation of his right leg in the Spring of 45, after which he continued to fly with a prosthetic limb.

March 44: Disaster struck when Rudel landed behind Soviet lines to retrieve a downed German aircrew. Snow and mud bogged down the airplane, making it impossible to take off. Approaching Soviet troops forced everyone to flee on foot, but barring their escape was the 900 foot wide river Dnjestr. The Germans stripped to their longjohns, and swam across the ice-clogged river. Rudel's close friend and crewman, Erwin Henstchel, drowned a few feet from the far shore. They had flown 1490 missions together at the time of Hentschel's death. His body was never recovered.

Rudel was pursued by hundreds of Soviet troops who were intent on collecting the 100,000 ruble bounty which Stalin had placed on his head, and he was shot in the shoulder while they chased him with dogs and on horseback. Through incredible ingenuity, audacity, and raw determination, Rudel escaped and made his way, alone and unarmed, back home, despite being more than 30 miles behind Soviet lines when he began his 24 hour trek. He was barefoot and almost naked in the sub-freezing winter weather, without food, compass, or medical attention.

All information was taken from here.

Oh, what the heck. I'll add another. Erich Hartmann.

The German fighter pilot, flying mostly in a BF 109, shot down 352 Soviet planes on the Russian front.

No, that's not a typo -- three hundred and fifty-two.

He was awarded the Third Reich's highest regularly awarded military decoration: The Knight's Cross to the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds.

He also crash landed 14 times.

He was turned over to the Soviets after the war and tried as a war criminal. He did 10 years in the Gulag.

He said that of all his achievements, he's most proud that in over 1400 combat missions he never lost a wingman. He died in 1995.

More information here.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Axe2121:

* 518+ Tanks

* 700 Trucks

* 150+ Flak and Artillery positions

And how many of those were German?

[Dave H]

My nomination is Count Luigi de la Pene, who led the attack on the Royal Navy base in Alexandria on the night of 18-19 November 1941. With only three of the first human torpedos - the "Siluro a lenta corsa" (SLC) or "slow course torpedo" and five crewmen, de la Pene won a devastating tactical and strategic victory for Italy. Both of the British battleships in the Eastern Mediterranean, the Queen Elizabeth and Valiant, were sunk.

In a cruel twist of fate, the Italians never knew about de la Pene's success until it was far too late to take advantage of the situation. Both British battleships, although resting on the sea bottom in shallow water, appeared undamaged in aerial photographs. The ruse was enhanced by burning oil to create clouds of smoke from the funnels, as though the ships were prepared to sail at a moment's notice.

The sinking of two battleships by six men was one of the truly outstanding feats of the war.

[Michael Emrys]

Since the door was thown open to intelligence services, I'd like to nominate the XX Committee, aka the Double Cross system. By rounding up all the spies Germany tried to infiltrate into Britain and turning most of them, the XX Committee was able to feed German intelligence a steady stream of misinformation that they were eager to believe. Its greatest coup was undoubtedly to maintain well into the summer the fiction that the Normandy invasion was just a diversion and the main Allied attack was due to fall in the Calais area, thus keeping most of the divisions of the 15th. Armee in place until after Cobra and the Falais Gap.

Michael

[Heliotic]

Originally posted by Axe2121:

* Shot down 32 times.

That figure alone is incredible, 'they don't make em like they used to' must apply to military personnel as well.

[Michael Dorosh]

Best light infantry unit - joint US-Canadian First Special Service Force, hands down. Composed entirely of officers and NCOs, they were trained in amphibious operations, parachute ops, cold weather ops (including skiing), hand to hand combat, trained in all German and Japanese weapons and actually excelled at all of this. They stymied the amphibious warfare instructors in Virginia by routinely besting the times for loading and unloading drills of even the top Marine units.

As for Rudel:

By his own account, Rudel wasn't a particularly skilled pilot, though he did have the bonus of being nuts enough to fly the slow and unmaneuverable Ju87D long after saner pilots stopped doing so.

I rather suspect Rudel's National Socialist streak ran far deeper than was portrayed in his autobiography. Not that he didn't deserve the medals, but I wouldn't completely lionize him either. Even in his book, he never discusses his thoughts about the "untermenschen" he was fighting (perhaps wisely) - would be interesting to hear his real views on the racial policies of his homeland.

I quote Rudel in my sig line as he did have an unbreakable spirit. What a shame his energies were harnessed for such an appalling cause.

Incidentally, and to his credit, Rudel was not required to "fly until your're dead or the war is over." Hitler personally ordered him, more than once, to stop flying. Even with part of his leg shot away, Rudel refused to comply and ended up flying Fw 190s, taking Douglas Bader as his inspiration.

[ May 04, 2004, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[MikeyD]

I rather suspect poor private Eddie Slovack ain't gonnna get onto this list.

[Lars]

The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors

A couple of US Destroyers vs. a Japanese Battleship Fleet.

A very good read.

[Jim Boggs]

I don't have a link, but my hat is off to those three torpedo squadrons from the Enterprise, Hornet, and Yorktown during the Battle of Midway.

Flying their low and slow Devastators against the Jap fleet, boring in despite being shot down one after another, ignoring the futility of their mission, these men continued on into certain death without any hesitation whatsoever. I think there were very few survivors.

By their sacrifice they cleared the way for the SBD's to turn the tide of war in the Pacific.

Incredible sacrifice and heroism.

[Hans]

"Hero of the Japanese Imperial Navy, known throughout Japan as "the unsinkable captain" of World War II, Captain Tameichi Hara, led his destroyers into the thick of combat in practically every major naval battle in the Pacific."

Captain of destroyer Amatsukaze at the beginning of the war, and squadron commander aboard Shigure during much of the fighting in the Solomons. He survived several very close scrapes in the Solomons, including being the lone destroyer to survive the fiasco off of Vella LaVella on August 6, 1943, where three of four Japanese ships involved (Hagikaze, Arashi, and Kawakaze) were all ambushed and sunk within the space of a few minutes in the Battle of Kula Gulf. By the end of the war he had become skipper of Yahagi, which accompanied (and was sunk along with) Yamato on her final sortie, although Hara again survived. Hara exemplified the best in Japanese surface commanders; highly skilled (particularly in torpedo warfare and night fighting), hard driving, and aggressive. He was also bitterly critical of the Japanese Navy's handling of the war.

Noted for taking only one hit during the entire Solomon campaign, a torpedo that went thru his rudder without exploding. Noted for his bravery, gallentry and skill.

His book is one of the finest ever written, Japanese Destroyer Captain

Captain Hara got translated into English because of John F. Kennedy. Hara was commanding the Amagiri when it rammed and sank PT-109. Hara had no idea Kennedy was in his way that night.

[Hans]

Saburo Sakai

64 kills

On Dec. 8, 1941, the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor, he flew with his group to attack an American air base in the Philippines. He shot down an American P-40, in what was said to be the Japan's first aerial kill there. On Jan. 25, he downed an American B-17, the first Allied bomber to fall in the Pacific.

In August 1942, he was hit in the face by a bullet from a Grumman Avenger torpedo bomber. He was blinded in the right eye and his left side was paralyzed. He was prepared to die.

"I swore I would not go out like a coward, merely diving the plane into the ocean for one bright flash of pain, and then nothing" he said in his book, which was written with Martin Caidin and Fred Saito. "If I must die, at least I could go out as a Samurai. My death would take several of the enemy with me. A ship. I needed a ship."

But somehow he made it back 560 nautical miles to his base in New Guinea. In 1983, he met the tailgunner who hit him, Harry L. Jones of Unionville, Nev. "I thought he was gone," Mr. Jones said. The two enjoyed conversing, the Los Angles Times reported.

Mr. Sakai spent five months in the hospital, instructed other fliers and returned to combat. He believed a bomber he shot down around the time of Japan's surrender may have been the last American plane downed in World War II. Mr. Sakai was one of the few Japanese servicemen to rise from the ranks of enlisted men to officer. He retired with the rank of lieutenant.

He told Mr. Sheftall that he had not killed any creature, "not even a mosquito," since last stepping from the cockpit of his Zero on a hot August day in 1945.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

I don't have a link, but my hat is off to those three torpedo squadrons from the Enterprise, Hornet, and Yorktown during the Battle of Midway.

Flying their low and slow Devastators against the Jap fleet, boring in despite being shot down one after another, ignoring the futility of their mission, these men continued on into certain death without any hesitation whatsoever. I think there were very few survivors.

By their sacrifice they cleared the way for the SBD's to turn the tide of war in the Pacific.

Incredible sacrifice and heroism.

What does this have to do with units and individuals whose training and bearing made them the "best of the best"? As I recall, none of them got a single hit. Not that I doubt their courage, but it seems a bit off topic.

Getting back on topic - and speaking tactically, I would say First Canadian Infantry Division probably ranks up among the top of the Allied infantry divisions, certainly first among the 3 Canadian formations. One need only look at the actions of individual battalions for some astonishing feats of arms - the Hasty P's at Assoro, the Van Doos at Casa Berardi, and the Hitler Line all come to mind immediately. There were places that a combination of ingenuity and determination made them better than their enemies. And I think it goes beyond merely "showing up" as it were - most Allied divisions performed well in combat, but few showed real tactical brilliance that put them in the "best of the best" league. I'd argue that First Canadian Division was a solid performer with occasionaly flashes of tactical brilliance that was lacking in other formations, including 2nd and 3rd Canadian Divs.

[ May 04, 2004, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

I don't have a link, but my hat is off to those three torpedo squadrons from the Enterprise, Hornet, and Yorktown during the Battle of Midway.

Flying their low and slow Devastators against the Jap fleet, boring in despite being shot down one after another, ignoring the futility of their mission, these men continued on into certain death without any hesitation whatsoever. I think there were very few survivors.

By their sacrifice they cleared the way for the SBD's to turn the tide of war in the Pacific.

Incredible sacrifice and heroism.

What does this have to do with units and individuals whose training and bearing made them the "best of the best"? As I recall, none of them got a single hit. Not that I doubt their courage, but it seems a bit off topic. </font>

[Lars]

How about Hiroo Onoda.

No Surrender: My Thirty-Year War

Nobody else's war went that long.

[BigMik1]

Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

I don't have a link, but my hat is off to those three torpedo squadrons from the Enterprise, Hornet, and Yorktown during the Battle of Midway.

Flying their low and slow Devastators against the Jap fleet, boring in despite being shot down one after another, ignoring the futility of their mission, these men continued on into certain death without any hesitation whatsoever. I think there were very few survivors.

By their sacrifice they cleared the way for the SBD's to turn the tide of war in the Pacific.

Incredible sacrifice and heroism.

What does this have to do with units and individuals whose training and bearing made them the "best of the best"? As I recall, none of them got a single hit. Not that I doubt their courage, but it seems a bit off topic. </font>

[Dave H]

Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

I don't have a link, but my hat is off to those three torpedo squadrons from the Enterprise, Hornet, and Yorktown during the Battle of Midway.

Flying their low and slow Devastators against the Jap fleet, boring in despite being shot down one after another, ignoring the futility of their mission, these men continued on into certain death without any hesitation whatsoever. I think there were very few survivors.

By their sacrifice they cleared the way for the SBD's to turn the tide of war in the Pacific.

Incredible sacrifice and heroism.

Jim, if I remember correctly, there was only one survivor from the torpedo squadrons. Ensign George Gay from Torpedo 8 of the Hornet had the best seat in the house for the dive bomber attack on the Japanese carriers. He has a very interesting interview here. I was amazed that he said before the battle he not only had never flown carrying a torpedo, he'd never even seen a carrier aircraft take off with a torpedo. On the other hand, he had watched Doolittle's B-25s take off from the Hornet. Pretty peculiar experiences!

[Michael Dorosh]

Exactly, they really weren't superbly trained by any stretch of the imagination. The dive bombers pilots weren't either, and the faulty electrical arming switches ensured that some of the SBDs arrived over the target unarmed.

And incidentally 6 TBFs did also attack the Japanese fleet, with at least 1 making it back to Midway where they were based. One of the gunners was with Ballard when he found the remains of Yorktown recently. I believe there were survivors from the other squadrons - Torpedo 8 became famous for losing 29 out of 30 of their flyers.

I'm not saying they weren't brave, but they were not the best of the best; certainly their equipment was subpar, and if they managed to pull down Japanese fighter cover so the SBDs could have a clean run-in, that had nothing to do with their training, nor was it a deliberate choice. They were actually supposed to be covered by F4Fs from the carriers, come to that, and in fact radioed several times for their fighter cover to come down to their rescue.

So yes, they were enourmously brave, no, they were not any kind of an elite. Had the SBDs arrived ten or thirty minutes later, with Japanese fighter cover up high again, and refuelling and rearming operations having been completed, the entire battle might have gone the other way. The Americans were enormously lucky in addition to their tenacity.

But especially skilled in the tactical arts - I just don't think so.

Not to mention the eight seperate attacks on the Main Body before the SBDs - including B26s, B17s, TBFs, etc....no co-ordination of effort, and no hits scored. Sometimes a wild melee just pays off; ask the Calgary Flames.

[ May 04, 2004, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Jim Boggs]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I'm not saying they weren't brave, but they were not the best of the best; certainly their equipment was subpar, and if they managed to pull down Japanese fighter cover so the SBDs could have a clean run-in, that had nothing to do with their training, nor was it a deliberate choice.

Well written rebuttal, I see your and Dave H's points.

Oh well, I can now return to the bliss that my ignorance provides.

[edit]-I would also like to point out that it IS possible to be corrected with reasoned arguments. I would commend my "teachers" for their lack of flaming in their replies.

[ May 04, 2004, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Jim Boggs ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I'm not saying they weren't brave, but they were not the best of the best; certainly their equipment was subpar, and if they managed to pull down Japanese fighter cover so the SBDs could have a clean run-in, that had nothing to do with their training, nor was it a deliberate choice.

Well written rebuttal, I see your and Dave H's points.

Oh well, I can now return to the bliss that my ignorance provides. </font>

[Dave H]

Originally posted by Jim Boggs:

(snip)

[edit]-I would also like to point out that it IS possible to be corrected with reasoned arguments. I would commend my "teachers" for their lack of flaming in their replies.

I'm sure it was an oversight, maggot.

I attempted to edit my earlier post and ended up losing the entire addition. Years ago I heard Mr. Gay on NPR describing his experiences at Midway. After his aircraft had been hit, and his gunner killed, he flew directly over one Japanese carrier. He could clearly see the bombers being armed, and for a fleeting instant thought about crashing into the flight deck. He suspected the crash would doom the carrier. Immediately, the knowledge that crashing would definitely be fatal for himself outweighed his suicidal thought. He went ahead and ditched his plane, and ended up with the best vantage point for the destruction of the Japanese carriers. My kind of warrior, with a highly developed sense of self-preservation. As Patton said, "No b------ ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb b------ die for his country."

[Hans]

Originally posted by Lars:

How about Hiroo Onoda.

No Surrender: My Thirty-Year War

Nobody else's war went that long.

Talk about not knowing when to quit, three points for loyalty -10 for common sense. However very much a hero to Japanese.

[JasonC]

Oh God, spare us reruns from Signal magazine.

Best navy - USA.

Best airforce - USA.

Best army - USSR.

Best strategy - UK.

Worst strategy - Germany.

Best war economy - USA.

Worst war economy - Italy.

Best intel - UK.

Best operational "moves" - USSR.

Best combined arms tactics - Germany.

Best political leadership - UK.

Worst political leadership - France.

Best political-military relations - USA.

Worst political-military relations - Germany.

Best military doctrine - Germany.

The Letterman list history of WW II...

[KenH]

Originally posted by Lars:

The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors

A couple of US Destroyers vs. a Japanese Battleship Fleet.

A very good read.

punt!

Seriously, Jeeps vs Giants , probably the greatest display of heroism in WW2 by the United States Navy. If anyone knows anyone in Hollywood, THIS is a story that needs to be told and given a proper modern CGI treatment

Salute!

Oh, for further fighter-pilot nominees, Hans-Joachim Marseille; 158 victories, all against the western allies. KIA when his chute failed to open after a bad bail/inflight engine fire.

Kacha's Luftwaffe Page

has some great stuff

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Oh God, spare us reruns from Signal magazine.

Best navy - USA.

Best airforce - USA.

Best army - USSR.

Best strategy - UK.

Worst strategy - Germany.

Best war economy - USA.

Worst war economy - Italy.

Best intel - UK.

Best operational "moves" - USSR.

Best combined arms tactics - Germany.

Best political leadership - UK.

Worst political leadership - France.

Best political-military relations - USA.

Worst political-military relations - Germany.

Best military doctrine - Germany.

The Letterman list history of WW II...

Best artillery system?

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JasonC:

Oh God, spare us reruns from Signal magazine.

Best navy - USA.

Best airforce - USA.

Best army - USSR.

Best strategy - UK.

Worst strategy - Germany.

Best war economy - USA.

Worst war economy - Italy.

Best intel - UK.

Best operational "moves" - USSR.

Best combined arms tactics - Germany.

Best political leadership - UK.

Worst political leadership - France.

Best political-military relations - USA.

Worst political-military relations - Germany.

Best military doctrine - Germany.

The Letterman list history of WW II...

Best artillery system? </font>