Explain this....

[stoat]

Originally posted by Wingmanx:

Stoat, I used to do the same thing in armor vs armor engagements, figuring I'd try to keep the visual advantage over the enemy. Until I saw several times when my tank took a direct hit, and while it shrugged off the shot, I guess my TCs, sitting happily up in their hatch caught the business end of shrapnel from the failed shell. So now, once the big steel beasts start throwing shells at each other I tell my TC to get their heads down.

I still find myself tempted to pop up every now and then though. Especially during a lull in the fighting when you know the enemy tank is there but you can't see him due to smoke or a line of trees he popped behind. So many times that first shot can be so important if you manage to land it.

Sometimes it works for me. Sometimes I still send TCs home in pine boxes.

I like to keep them up for better first-shot ability, and spotting of infantry targets that might be active. Most of the time in an armor on armor battles, the crew will button up after an incoming burst of MG fire, or a ricochet regardless of what I tell them to, so casualties due to shrapnel are kept fairly low.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Civdiv, crew quality is a big factor. Elites uaually button up on their own just in time, while greens need their hands held. One thing you can do is watch your TCs, and when one ducks, consider telling everyone at that range (especially from infantry) to duck.

It's even worse for halftracks . . .

[civdiv]

LOL!!! I just got a single Sherman 105 as a reinforcement. I had just moved him from his entry location to the first road (The map for this scenario is HUGE!!!). That maybe 200 meters. And I look at him to keep moving up the road (My forces are still at least 600 meters farther forward), and I notice he is buttoned and has a crew casualty. I must have a sniper in my backfield. I now have 10 tanks, and 8 TCs down!

[civdiv]

And yet another question. I put this here instead of in the 'Questions' string in the CM:BB forum, as I am playing CM:AK, so there is a slight difference.

What are the tricks to getting units to disembark? I've now spent two full turns trying to get some guys to get out of my halftracks. One squad promptly got out of its halftrack the first turn, but the occupants of the other two halftracks are still sitting there. In both turns I made sure the halftracks weren't moving. The first turn I had the halftracks pause for 30 seconds. AFter the delay the squads still hadnlt gotten out, and the halftracks started to turn around. As I said, one squad did get out. Now the order pause (due to command) for the other units was not more than 19 seconds.

On the next turn when they still hadn't exited their vehicles, their pause was zero. I canceled the movement for the halftracks, and increased their pause to 40 seconds. I then ordered them to turn around again. So the infantry occupants had movement/disembark orders with no pause, and the halftracks had a 40 second delay, and still the occupants remained sitting there.

I did order the disembark orders some distance (30 or 40 meters) away from the halftracks. Is it possible they are waiting for the halftracks to move, perhaps closer (even though the halftracks are moving the other way). Does it help to give the first axis of the movement of the occupants (the move command with the disembark order) as close as possible to the vehicles to get them to get out of the vehicle? The latter is what I will try now.

[ February 08, 2006, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: civdiv ]

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by civdiv:

What are the tricks to getting units to diembark?

How apt

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by civdiv:

I did order the disembark orders some distance (30 or 40 meters) away from the halftracks. Is it possible they are waiting for the halftracks to move, perhaps closer...?

No. Tell me something, are your recalcitrant troops under command? That is, do they have a live command line back to an HQ? If not, there will be a built-in delay, the length of which will depend on their experience and morale. It could amount to a minute or more for green or conscript troops in some cases.

Michael

[Sergei]

AFAIK;

an infantry unit will disembark if

1) the carrier unit is fully stopped for the WHOLE turn :or:

2) the carrier unit is moving SLOWLY, CLOSE to the point of disembarkment.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Sergei:

AFAIK;

an infantry unit will disembark if

1) the carrier unit is fully stopped for the WHOLE turn

I'm not so sure that is strictly necessary, although it is prudent to wait a turn before giving the vehicle another movement command. All that is absolutely necessary is to have it wait a little longer than the personnel's command pause. but like I say, just to be on the safe side, I would make it a habit of not having any movement orders for the vehicle until the turn after I have seen the personnel disembark.

2) the carrier unit is moving SLOWLY, CLOSE to the point of disembarkment.

Although I won't say this is impossible, this is something I have never seen. Are you certain that you have?

BTW, once a personnel unit has been given a disembark order, they will leave the vehicle at any point where it stops long enough. Say it becomes immobilized 100 meters from the personnel's first waypoint. They will hop out and go on foot the rest of the way, unless they broke due to fire and crawled off in some other direction.

Michael

[juan_gigante]

Pretty much everyone agrees that embarking/disembarking is one of the most cumbersome and inefficient things to do in the game. This is the only way I can consistently load/unload units.

Turn 1: Transport moves into position, comes to stop

Turn 2: Transportee loads/unloads

Turn 3: Transport can move again now

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />2) the carrier unit is moving SLOWLY, CLOSE to the point of disembarkment.

Although I won't say this is impossible, this is something I have never seen. Are you certain that you have?</font>

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />1) the carrier unit is fully stopped for the WHOLE turn

I'm not so sure that is strictly necessary, although it is prudent to wait a turn before giving the vehicle another movement command. All that is absolutely necessary is to have it wait a little longer than the personnel's command pause.</font>

[civdiv]

I haven't found any rhyme or reason for when they get off their vehicles or on, but then I'm sort of new at this game (CM:AK). The third turn after I had been trying to get them off the vehicles, they all jumped off in like the first second of the turn. It just seems strange that in a group of like 3 or 4 halftracks, all moving as a group, one squad got off 2 full turns before anyone else did. And I do remember that the halftracks arrived at their destinations only about 25 seconds into the turn. I then started trying to get the infantry off of them the next turn.

I'll keep playing around, but I think I'll just use juan and michael's solution, just give them a full turn to disembark. I just keep getting burned trying to save time and move the carrier and disembark in the same turn.

michael, in terms of the command delay, I believe all were in command as I had the platoon HQ with them. But I timed all that out. Including their delay I gave them an additional 10 seconds or so to disembark the first turn, and then like 30-40 seconds the second turn. What I mean is;

If the squad's command delay is like 12 seconds, the first turn I made the trucks delay 30 seconds before moving. The squad didn't dismount, so the next turn I cancelled the trucks movement. Now the squads delay is zero as he already has the movement command. The second turn I gave the trucks a delay of 40 seconds. Still the squad didn't dismount. The last turn, I cancelled the truck's movement and didn't give it ANY movement orders, and I kept the squad's disembark command. Within like the first couple of seconds of the third turn the troops disembark.

[civdiv]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />1) the carrier unit is fully stopped for the WHOLE turn

I'm not so sure that is strictly necessary, although it is prudent to wait a turn before giving the vehicle another movement command. All that is absolutely necessary is to have it wait a little longer than the personnel's command pause.</font>

[civdiv]

And yet another question (Don't you hate your less experienced players?).

Victory Flags.

So I know if you don't have units in close proximity to a flag, it displays as a question mark. The first couple of times I went; 'Oh, shiite!!', and rushed a squad or two back to take them again. I think I figured out that if you don't have any units around them, you just can't tell that you have control. So when they go back to question marks, you still own them, right? Unless, or course, the enemy has moved back to them without being seen.

My issue is that it sort of requires you to virtually destroy EVERY single enemy unit on the map, or risk losing a flag. What kinds and steength of units are required to seize a flag? Can a sniper do it? Or a crew? It just seems dumb if you take a flag after a determined assault, and then you move on. And then the 2 man halftrack crew that fled into the woods takes it back. And you can't tell because if you aren't close to it, it displays a question mark. I have been using my knocked out vehicle crews to sort of garrison them. I can't tell if their presence is maintaining control of the flag, or if it's just a matter of having a unit close to the flag, so you know it's status.

It just seems weird to be conducting like a battalion advance and have your FLOT 500 meters beyond an objective. But then a single guy from an enemy tank crew seizes control of the flag from you. And you never know it since you don't have units nearby.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by civdiv:

So basically, truck arrives at destination in turn 1.

You give the passenger dismount orders and DO NOT GIVE the truck orders for turn 2.

You can (read my two previous posts).

But you HAVE to put the disembark-waypoint to where the unit is. The mistake I often do is to place the initial waypoint to some spot 50m away - the troopers misunderstand this and wait in the transport instead.

[Sergei]

Victory flags are yours ONLY as long as you have a unit nearby and there's no enemies contesting it. If you take a victory location and move on, it turns into neutral.

[Slappy]

What Sergei said.

[civdiv]

Based on all of your advise, I think I now have licked my prolems with embarking and debarking troops. However, here may be the dumb question of the day;

Can you run over your own troops? I know it sounds crazy. But I had a two-man FO team crossing a road, and there was a traffic jam as a result of the poor pathfinding in this game. I had two halftracks and a jeep all in a little scrum on the road. I was plotting my moves and I was horrified to see my FO team was dead. There was no enemy artyillery or mortars, and there was only one enemy unit in range, and it was an attrited Fuslier squad with 3 men, firing from about 500 meters. I guess they could have gotten VERY lucky and gunned them down, but it seems pretty far fetched.

[tankibanki]

I don't think you can run over any units, not even the enemy. In my experience vehicles either wait for or drive around any units in their way (and sometimes they just push them out of their way).

[Sergei]

Yep, your tanks won't crush your infantry. In CMBB they just move through, and in CMAK the infantry will run out of the way.

[Other Means]

If the disembark waypoint is within 12m of the carrying unit, the troops will get off immediately.

Other than that, it's as described by Sergei.

[tar]

What would I do in real life with a PIAT? I'd throw it away and nail the HT with an AT-4

Not if you had to wait 40 years for supply to deliver an AT-4 to you.

[Wingmanx]

On the topic of Victory flags, I know there's been alot of talk and discussion on them beforehand, so I'm probably beating a dead horse. But I've found that while they're certainly likely to be the center of engagements, being the 'prize' you're fighting over and all, you can certainly grind out a victory by concentrating less on the flags (though don't forget about them entirely!) and more on inflicting casualties on your opponent. Twice I've managed to get a victory in a meeting engagement now by letting my opponent move in on the flag territory first simply because I had a better position and cover to shoot at it, thus causing him more losses and setting up for a sudden charge at the end, securing a single big flag and enough casualties for the win.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by juan_gigante:

Pretty much everyone agrees that embarking/disembarking is one of the most cumbersome and inefficient things to do in the game. This is the only way I can consistently load/unload units.

Turn 1: Transport moves into position, comes to stop

Turn 2: Transportee loads/unloads

Turn 3: Transport can move again now

That is by far the most assured manner of accomplishing the move. Nearly all the time, it is also the most realistic.

But there are some cyberjockies who insist on shaving seconds off everything wherever they can, as if combat were a Grand Prix, and they weep and moan when they can't do things the way they naïvely imagine.

Michael