Possible Arty Bug In Demo

[Tank Ace]

i mean my german artillery.

[Treeburst155]

If you have LOS, you WILL hit the target whether your spotter actually sees the spotting round or not. Redwolf disagrees with this, but I've tested it, and can't generate the bug he speaks of.

If you ADJUST (green line) an ONGOING ACCURATE strike to a point IN LOS, and the rounds fall far away after the adjustment, you have replicated the bug I started this thread about.

[ December 04, 2003, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[ZOR58]

I just had the same error while playing the demo. I adjusted my fire from an acquired target 50 meters to a knew target and had a green line. When the rounds started falling 40 seconds later they were 350 meters left of my target.

[James Crowley]

Originally posted by redwolf:

If you targetted the upper level of the church the spotting round probably fell to the ground you could no observe. So far so documented behaviour.

The bug-relevant question is: could you correct it by adjusting?

I didn't target the building at all; open ground area, clear LOS.

I then cancelled the fire altogether and re-targeted, close by the original target location.

Sure enough, when the fire came next turn, it went almost totally off-map, this time in the exact opposite direction.

I can't recall this ever happening in CMBB; maybe I was just lucky or there is a certain combination of circumstances which hadn't come together previously.

[Redwolf]

James, ZOR58,

what you have is documented behaviour. Barrages can come off-target and need to be adjusted.[*]

The bug that was once in CMBB and is unclear (to me) whether it is fixed would go a step further, ignoring the adjustments, having the FFE continue to fall on the previous off-traget location.

[*]Just for the record, said documented behaviour is not an improvement in realism, IMHO, it makes things worse. But it's not a bug.

[Treeburst155]

Redwolf,

Barrages can be off-target ONLY if the spotter does not have LOS. I've never seen it work out differently since CMBB 1.03. If a strike IS off-target due to no LOS (the only way to have an off-target strike), it should now be adjustable according to a post by Madmatt at the time. This fix is probably listed in the 1.03 readme also. This does not mean the strike will ALWAYS adjust CORRECTLY. It just means it won't ALWAYS fail to adjust.

You're really talking about an entirely different thing involving adjustment of off-target out of LOS strikes. I'm talking about adjusting ONGOING ACCURATE strikes. It does not matter where the spotting round for a green line adjustment falls, or if it is within LOS. Through testing, I have convinced myself that spotting rounds are irrelevant if the target point is in LOS. I may be wrong; but I'd need to see different to change my mind.

[ December 05, 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Treeburst155]

Redwolf,

I have set up the ultimate test in CMAK for making sure the spotter does NOT see the spotting rounds. It works most of the time.

If the target point is in LOS, the strike will be accurate, even if the spotting rounds fall outside of LOS. This is a fact as far as I'm concerned.

If an ACCURATE ONGOING strike is adjusted with the green line maintained, the adjusted strike will also be accurate, even when the spotting round for the adjustment falls out of LOS. I will send you the scenario file if you wish. It is VERY difficult for the spotter to see any spotting rounds.

This tells me that any ACCURATE strikes that are "green line" adjusted, that do not fall on target after the adjustment, are likely candidates for being instances of this new CMAK "bug" I think we have.

[ December 05, 2003, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Steiner14]

IMO ari is one of CM's weaknesses.

I hoped CMAK will improve it, but reading the posts it's obvious the ari-model isn't corrected.

As long as the FO can somehow identify the location of the (pre-)barrage, this is already a reference-point.

Why is it still not possible, to drop barrages into areas out of LOS, if they aren't too far away from the reference point?

[James Crowley]

Originally posted by Treeburst155:

Redwolf,

Barrages can be off-target ONLY if the spotter does not have LOS. I've never seen it work out differently since CMBB 1.03. If a strike IS off-target due to no LOS (the only way to have an off-target strike), it should now be adjustable according to a post by Madmatt at the time. This fix is probably listed in the 1.03 readme also. This does not mean the strike will ALWAYS adjust CORRECTLY. It just means it won't ALWAYS fail to adjust.

Well the examples I quoted both contradict this.

In both cases there was clear LOS; spotting round landed close; then the actual barrage went miles off. Twice, in the same game, same US mortar unit. Nothing to do with corrections whatsoever.

I have the files, as this is an ongoing PBEM.

[Treeburst155]

Yep, Jim, it sounds like you've run into the elusive bug. I've not been able to reproduce it however. I've tried real hard to do so too.

[Culex Pipiens]

i have just finished a scenariom and find the same "problem", the spotter with clear LOS to the area and the rounds falling absolutely far away..... i can give a save if needed

[Sirocco]

During my first CMAK QB, I ordered a British 3" spotter to area fire at a location in LOS. The first salvoes landed well outside the target area at the extreme left of the map. I then re-targetted the same spot. When further salvoes then landed towards the rear of the map, again well outside the target area, I let it continue as it was at least hitting a flag area.

I'm not sure whether that's a bug, or whether he was just having a bad day at the office.

[Redwolf]

Dammit, mumble, honk.

I cannot find my CMBB manual, still in movement box, but anyway:

IIRC is says very clearly that barrages, and that means barrages with LOS, can fall off-target, as opposed to out-of-LOS barrages that will] fall out of target.

So much for documented behaviour. You can get off-target even with LOS and you are suppsoed to adjust it.

The bug we had (or might still have) was that the adjustment did not work, the barrage would continue to fall off-target instead of getting adjusted. The explanation we received was that if the spotting rounds fall out-of-LOS you might get this behaviour, although precise details were never provided.

[kenfedoroff]

I finally experienced this bug myself in Sword of Bagration. I had a Blue Target Line from the FO to the target. When the shells fell off target, I checked LOS to the FO target line and LOS had changed from good to bad. It did this twice. There wasn't any smoke or building explosion debris to account for this.

Now I know what my opponents have been bitching about.

Ken

[Agua]

Hmmm... I just looked in the section concerning arty targetting in the CMBB manual and it was pretty ambiguous.

There was this list of changes which was published initially prior to the release of CMBB, and it states:

Artillery adjusting - If you have an artillery strike that’s coming in off-target (NOTE! If a spotting round is used, which is typical, the strike will come in ON target, so this is important only for strikes out of LOS and rockets, which don’t use spotting rounds) and you want to correct its aim, you should adjust fire onto the originally desired target. Further aiming error will often be reduced, but this is not guaranteed.

CMBB changes

I wanted to agree with you that inaccurate barrages to LOS targets was an intentional implementation in CMBB, but for the life of me, I'm not seeing that documented anywhere. I definitely remember (because I experienced it) there was bug which was pretty rare but definitely would not allow adjustments to innaccurate barrages.

Now that I'm thinking on it a little more, it seems there was also a dispute concerning whether an in-LOS targeted barrage could come in wildly off target. If you're feeling ambititious, look for some posts by Bullethead back shortly after release of CMBB. He and I went back and forth IIRC, saying it was not possible.

Thinking further, even, it seems that Treeburst looked into this as well previously. Am I getting confused here? Seems there was discussion concerning the language in the manual being ambiguous. Hell, here's the pertinent portions of the manual concerning targetting and adjustments (that I could find anyway):

This is just by implication under "Delays" (p. 131)

Another important factor for delays is if the target area is in LOS of the spotting team or not. If not, fire delays can be a lot longer for an artillery strike, and the chance for missing the target area altogether rises dramatically.

(Emphasis added).

Sort of ambiguous there. You'd have to imply a chance for a barrage to miss a target that was in LOS at the time targetting commenced if "the chance for missing ... rises dramatically".

Then again, on the following page, still under "Delays" (p. 134):

Usually about 30-60 seconds before the full strike, a few "spotting rounds" fall on or near the target. These are needed for the spotter team to adjust the fire properly (an automatic procedure - no input from the player is required). Accuracy for the main strike is considerably better if the spotter has a line of sight to the targetr - see below: "Accuracy".

Okay, so that's sort of ambiguous as to whether the spotting round must be seen or not, but the relevant phrase here speaks in terms of absolutes: Accuracy for the main strike is considerably better if the spotter has a line of sight to the target ...". (Emphasis added). And not to get sidetracked here, but it's not clear *from the manual* whether the spotting round sighting is necessary - only that an in sight target is more accurate. (shrug). If you'll note in the text linked to Battlefront's list of changes made in CMBB, it does note that targets shift randomly under certain circumstances, one of them being "when there are no spotting rounds", then the text specifically identifies "rockets", as having no spotting round. But, that's another question.

Okay, on to "Accuracy" (p.133):

Artillery fire is not always on target. Depending on the experience of the spotting team, the type of artillery being fired, and whether the target area is in sight of the spotter (which is the most important factor), artillery can miss its mark widely, sometimes resulting in nasty "friendly fire" incidents.

[Paragraph concerning pre-planned bombardments and TRP exceptions to the above omitted]

The player receives no feedback if an artillery strike is accurate or not - it is important to watch the battlefield and see where the artillery actually falls. Look for that spotting round - if it's widely off target, chances are that the full barrage is going to be off the mark too.

I couldn't find any documentation where it was stated that off-target barrages called on targets in LOS was a new feature, though, there may be some ambiguity in the language of the manual in some places where it might be implied. However, there's also language which seems to state in absolute terms that if you've got LOS, it's going to be accurate. Maybe it was stated somewhere here in the forum. I know there was an adjustment bug, but the more I think on it, I think the discussion Bullethead, I and a few others were involved in also concerned wildly off-target barrages when the target was in LOS. He was denying it even occurred, iirc, going so far as to create an arty test map and he said he couldn't reproduce it.

[Edited to include the following:] Ahh... here's a couple of threads dealing with it:

Something's wrong ...... possibly a bug?

Artillery bug?

So it appears that Treeburst was involved in the original question, and that there were two lines of thought, namely: (a) wildly off target barrages do not occur when the spotter has initial LOS to the target; or ( it was a bug.

[Edited a second time to include the following:] Damned. Now after reading that first thread I linked to, I'm more confused thatn I was initially. Apparently, I was under the impression back at the time that the language from the manual quoted above concerning "Accuracy" at p.133 indicated a purposeful design to implement off-target artillery even when the spotter had LOS to the target. Now, looking at all the various crap that I've posted, I can't tell. Hehehh... great job, huh?

[Edited a third time to include the following:] Ahhh... Steve finally chimes in on page 5 of the first discussion thread I linked to.

Apparently this is still an open topic. The problem appears to be that some people are sure they are doing nothing wrong, yet getting very inaccurate and unadjustable fire. But by and large there doesn't appear to be a problem. BH's test at least indicates that there shouldn't be.

Perhaps it is user error or perhaps it is a bug. Unfortunately, without seeing this for ourselves we can't tell one way or the other. Perhaps if someone could send me a savegame file where the artillery is falling way off target Charles might be able to spot something in the code (1.01 only please!).

From Steve's comments, it appears that he was under the impression that in-los targeting should not result in off target barrages.

[Yes, arty grogs, it's not called a "barrage", but rather a "concentration" or "fire plot" or something or other].

[ December 06, 2003, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Agua ]

[John Osborne]

Besides what happens in a scenario. Has anybody made a test map and place a spotter and a targert, call for fire and then document it and see if there is a bug? I would like to see what happens.

[citizen]

Originally posted by redwolf:

BTW, the real bug was not that the fire fell off target. The real bug was (is?) that under the conditions above a new adjustment would not adjust the fire, you would have to cancel for a turn and then start from scratch.

Yup, this is the problem I'd most like to see fixed. What we need is automatic adjustment of all strikes towards the aiming point (based on spotter experience and LOS to impacts) or an "Adjust" command that creates a short delay as the gunners replot onto the target... without moving the targeting line.

Having to cancel an off-target order and incurring a 3 minute delay to redesignate the orignally desired target is not good.

citizen

[Lawngnome]

I had no problems until yesterday playing Line of Defense as the Germans.

My completely fresh 105mm arty spotter targeted the hill where american infantry were spotted, but they advanced quicker than I thought so after the two spotting rounds fell close to the target I chose to shift about 40m. After an increase by about 40 seconds the barage began to fall at about the beginning of the following turn. To my dismay every barrage landed about 250m closer to me, RIGHT ON THE FIRST ROW OF HOUSES... I painfully watched for sixty seconds as my men were torn to pieces. The next turn i adjusted back to the original location, but the barrages fell in the same spot. Every house in the front row was badly damaged or destroyed. Two rifle squads were eliminated, my schreck was eliminated, and another squad was routed with only 2 men remaining.

Honestly I was so pissed I shut off my computer and went to get a beer.

Please tell me this bug will be fixed in the full game, or patch it quickly!

[ December 06, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Lawngnome ]

[Redwolf]

If you bothered to read the thread then you would have noticed that it is not clear that the behaviour you have seen is a bug, it might be what the manual means.

The actal bug we are talking about is that you would not have been able to adjust this off-target barrage, but obviously instead of helping us track down the bug you just shut off your computer

[kenfedoroff]

It happened again in the CMAK Demo.

I used LOS tool to make sure I could see target.

Then used target tool to the exact same spot (did not move pointer/curser) to get blue line.

Rounds start falling off target.

Check target point again with LOS tool and now LOS is blocked! (again, no smoke or explosive debris to account for change).

LOL, I laughed when this happened to my opponents, but now the joke is on me.

Here's to a better target system.

Ken

[Lawngnome]

Like I said, it was painful watching my first defense line be torn to shreds, hearing their screams of pain.. knowing that... that.... my incompetent spotter had doomed them..... I later shed a few tears while examining their corpses seeing if they killed any yanks before their unfortunate demise....

Yes, I read the thread. Yes, I realize it might not have been a bug. Human nature is to blame something other than yourself. A bug seems like a nice candidate.

Anyway, I did adjust the barrage, and the shells simply moved forward about the same i moved the spot forward.

Now be in awe of my superiour CGI skills

Lawngnomian nomenclature:

first spot denoted by: X

adjustment spot denoted by: XX

the landing points of first barrage = 1

the landing points after adjustment = 2

T = tree, H = house

TTTTTTTT.................................

TTTTTTT.......HILL.......................

TTTTTTT...........XX.....................

TTTTTT.........X.........................

TTTTTTTTT................................

..........................2..2...........

Grain Field...........2.1..2..2..........

.......H......H1..1H.1..H..2.H...H...H..H

--------------1-1---1-------------------------

^road^

Hope this helps.

[ December 06, 2003, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Lawngnome ]

[Treeburst155]

#1 The CMBB manual is an ambiguous document, and can't really be trusted. It is also incorrect in places. For example, it is downright wrong on how variable endings work.

#2 To my knowledge, nobody has ever been able to show that a FRESH arty strike that uses spotting rounds (non-rocket, in LOS) can fall off target.

#3 I'm positive the bug Redwolf speaks of was addressed in the CMBB 1.03 patch. You can now adjust OUT_OF_LOS strikes. The adjustment may or may not cause an accurate strike; but you CAN adjust the strike as of 1.03. Before 1.03, adjusting an off-target (out of LOS) strike didn't seem to EVER have ANY effect whatsoever.

Several posters have described the arty behaviour that caused me to start this thread. There is something going on that is very difficult to reproduce. The only thing I'm sure of is that it has nothing to do with spotting rounds. The arty just goes completely haywire for no reason, usually after a slight "green-line" shift; but maybe also with fresh strikes, based on a post or two to this thread.

Spotting rounds in CM are simply a confirmation that your spotter has LOS to the target. They serve no other purpose other than to expend ammo. You never need to adjust a strike based solely on the impact point of a spotting round. In fact, it would be a mistake to do so if you still want to hit the original point. This seems to contradict some fuzzy statements in the manual; but all my testing has shown it to be true.

[Treeburst155]

Originally posted by kenfedoroff:

It happened again in the CMAK Demo.

I used LOS tool to make sure I could see target.

Then used target tool to the exact same spot (did not move pointer/curser) to get blue line.

Rounds start falling off target.

Check target point again with LOS tool and now LOS is blocked! (again, no smoke or explosive debris to account for change).

LOL, I laughed when this happened to my opponents, but now the joke is on me.

Here's to a better target system.

Ken

This is a new wrinkle to the bug. It seems to indicate that the targeting line and/or the LOS tool are lying to us on occasion. This would explain what's causing the haywire strikes.

[Redwolf]

I don't get it.

Why should LOS to the same spot be blocked?

Sure no dust in between?

[Lawngnome]

read my diagram above and tell me.... tell me.... tell me why Hans had to die by friendly fire!!! Even when his friends were shredded to pieces in the first barrage... I tried to correct the problem... BUT THOSE BLASTED 105's.... They got him.... they got him good even when i adjusted fire....why? why!!!