Frequency of AT mine detonation

[Green Hornet]

I did a search but couldn't really find anything.

Does anyone know the approximate detonation success rate of AT mines? (Yes, I'll probably do a test later today) For some silly reason I thought the detonation rate was close to 100%.

I don't mean that I expect to KO a tank 100% of the time, but I thought if a tracked vehicle drove across an AT minefield, it would almost ALWAYS detonate.

I've had 2 cases in two separate games where my opponent has driven a tank straight through an AT minefield and nothing happens.

These are not daisy-chain mines but "normal AT mines. Perhaps my assumptions are wrong and/or I'm just really unlucky.

A but frustrating when you happen to guess correctly in the mine placement, gloat while you watch the enemy tank drive straight into your minefield, and then.......nothing. :eek:

[coldmeter]

I seem to remember a figure of a 25% hit chance with AT mines been mentioed by someone.

[Runyan99]

Seems like they always blow when I drive over them. I'd guess it is 80-90%.

[Kobal2]

Ah. That would explain why an empty field explored by PSWs suddenly became a chessboard of mines when the real tanks moved in.

[imported_no_one]

IIRC,it was 50%

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Green Hornet:

Does anyone know the approximate detonation success rate of AT mines? (Yes, I'll probably do a test later today) For some silly reason I thought the detonation rate was close to 100%.

I don't mean that I expect to KO a tank 100% of the time, but I thought if a tracked vehicle drove across an AT minefield, it would almost ALWAYS detonate.

[snips]

I don't know anything about fuze failure rates -- I was under the impression that they were pretty reliable, and I can see no reason why they should not be if adequately waterproofed.

AIUI, the general stopping power (GSP, formerly field stopping power, FSP) of a minefield depends on the density of mines laid in it. A vehicle that drives through a minefield unscathed probably does so simply because it did not drive over any mines. It is not practicable to lay mines so densely as to assure 100% GSP; and if you did, you would probably lose most of a panel through sympathetic detonation the first time one went off (although this is desirable in the case of ice-mines).

I believe that the GSP aimed at for a three-panel protective AT minefield is 70%; it should be tremendously non-difficult to set up a CM scenario to test the GSP in the game.

All the best,

John.

[Green Hornet]

Okay, if anyone is interested I did a quick test:

I used 100 Panzer IVH's crossing through a solid line of AT mines placed end to end. I had a single row of continuous AT mines placed in open terrain and made sure there were no gaps between the AT mine "units".

I ordered the Panzers to hunt straight through the line of AT mines.

Results-

Tanks Knocked out - 16

Tanks Immobilized - 28

Tanks OK (safely passed through mines) - 56

I realize the sample is fairly low, but AT mines only detonating 44% of the time seems a bit low to me.

This may be a realistic number, but I honestly didn't realize AT mines were such a crapshoot.

[coldmeter]

Yes it's alll flooding back to me now, no_one says 50% which sounds about right in relation to the tests you done hornet. I think what is supposed to be happening is the AT mines are not failing to explode through malfunction or any other mishap, it's just the tank and it's crew are just lucky enough not to actually drive over any mines.

I remember now when this was talked about and I was reading it, the guys who came up with the 50% hit chance had a novel way around this to make sure you got a hit every time with your minefields. Simply overlap your AT minefields, half of one over another and so on. You'll need to purchase more mines but you'll have a gaureented (in theory anyway) 100% hit rate.

[ June 13, 2004, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: coldmeter ]

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by coldmeter:

[snips]I remember now when this was talked about and I was reading it, the guys who came up with the 50% hit chance had a novel way around this to make sure you got a hit every time with your minefields. Simply overlap your AT minefields, half of one over another and so on. You'll need to purchase more mines but you'll have a gaureented (in theory anyway) 100% hit rate.

No you won't -- two goes at 50% makes a 75% chance of success. Which is pretty close to the desired GSP for a barrier minefield. So you could think of one thickness of mines as being a harassing field, and two as a barrier or protective field, and I think the result would be quite numerically convincing.

All the best,

John.

[JPS]

For those not familiar in practice with AT mines:

the things are big and bulky, say, around 10 kgs each. They detonate typically only if the wheel/track is directly on top of them. It does not make practical sense to put them so close to each other that _always_ when someone drives around mined area the wheels/tracks would hit at least one mine. If one would do so, the minefields would require many mines and be relatively easy to remove by pioneers once located.

Rather, mines are in "suitable densities" that vary upon intented purpose. It can even be very useful (for defender!) to _not_ have the first vehicle hit a mine, as then a convoy can be deep in the minefield by the time they notice the situation...

Overall, if only one AT mine density is available, around 50% seems very good choice. Future versions could support variable densities, and of course already now stacking AT mines is possible.

[Falcon988]

I remember once in a Stalingrad battle the Russians put minefields on the roads where I just -had- to cross to reach some surrounded men of mine. If I didn't then my infantry would have to go without armored support. So I sent a brave little halftrack crew to scout a way through the mines and presto! They made it through. Maneuvered all my tanks through along the same path. Little while later another Halftrack deviated from the path I set and was immobolized in that minefield. These things happen.

[Hpt. Lisse]

My observation concerning minefields is how poorly infantry units seem to "spot" AT minefields. Is this really the way it was in WWII? Wouldn't troops notice the freshly dug, then covered holes? I consistently have squads march over roads or breaks in the trees, only to have an AFV get immobilized in the same location a few turns later...

[flamingknives]

Assuming that the holes were freshly dug and then recovered. I've cut and refilled holes in a lawn that you couldn't spot unless you were quite close and looking for them, rather than the enemy. In open, or worse, ploughed, fields or muddy/dirt roads, or sand, it would be quite easy to hide mines.

[Spears]

No u cant see mines till u tred/tripthem hence there value , even now..... horrilbe things.

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by Kobal2:

Ah. That would explain why an empty field explored by PSWs suddenly became a chessboard of mines when the real tanks moved in.

Could this be a ground pressure thing? I've never checked to see if different ground pressures affect detonation.

[Arthur Krupp]

could well be. Another thing I've noticed is tanks and other vehicles continueing to roll throguh minefields even after they have been detected-I thought minefields were supposed to be "impassable" terrain as far as the AI was concerned.

[Slappy]

Not entirely. Infantry tend to balk at minefields, but they can be moved through with great morale peril. Vehicles will also replot if a minefield is discovered, but you can override.

Also, in my experience, using the same 'path' does not affect chance of detonation. It's all the same die roll when another vehicle goes through. Sometimes you can get through again, sometimes not.

[Mr. Tittles]

A big factor is track width. Compare the Tiger II track width to many other vehicles.

[Dirtweasle]

Played a game last night against the AI and had 3 Tigers KO with AT mines, 2 abandoned and the other just immobile.

The way it usually works in the game though is this;

My tanks 100% get either mobility or worse

My opponents tanks get through more than half the time.

[tar]

It probably just seems that way.

For the 50% of your tanks that make it through a minefield, you never find out that a minefield was there until the end of the game. If you don't detonate a mine, you don't discover the minefield.

So some of those tanks that just drove across the open terrain may have been crossing minefields without you knowing it.