Mailer Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 If they only would make a pacific front, then we would have the entire war. We have the west, we have the east, and soon we have Africa. But I can not feel complete until my men take Hernderson field at Guadalcanal. Yes, it is true that I can enjoy the entire war with Talonsoft's excellent campaign series, but these games seem to have lost their lustre after Combat Mission. Why can't it be? I read an interview with the boys down at Battlefront at Wargamer.com. They said the Combat Mission engine just didn't suit the Pacific because of all the Naval action and Island hopping. But I disagree. See, at the Batallion, Division level that CM simulates, there were TONS of infantry/armor engagements. And you wouldn't really be doing "island hopping" at this scale any more than you would have to make sure Patton stayed supplied during Operation Cobra in Beyond Overlord. I guess what I'm saying, is that on the tactical scale, things in the Pacific aren't all that different than things in Europe. It's like this. The West Front has kind of become the Brittany Spears of Computer Wargamming. We have thousands of games that put us right on Omaha Beach--and it's all because of Tom Hanks and Saving Private Ryan. Now don't get me wrong here, I love gaming on the West Front, but with so little coverage of the Pacific Front, I just wish my favorite WW2 Wargame of all time would cover it. So don't think I'm harshing on Battlefront, because the boys can make a damn fine game, but let us not forget the sacrafices of our brothers who fought in the Pacific, where EVERY DAY was like landing on the Beeches of Normandy. I mean, how many beeches did the Marines storm in the south pacific? Yet I haven't once seen Tom Hanks wading to shore on one of these tropical hell holes. Anyway, is there anyway we can talk you into it? Mailer -------------------- Mailer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Wasn't Henderson Field undefended when the landings went in on August 7th?? Sounds boring to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Wasn't Henderson Field undefended when the landings went in on August 7th?? Sounds boring to me. Well, he could be talking about playing the Japanese 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Wasn't Henderson Field undefended when the landings went in on August 7th?? Sounds boring to me. Well, he could be talking about playing the Japanese </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Berlichtingen: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Wasn't Henderson Field undefended when the landings went in on August 7th?? Sounds boring to me. Well, he could be talking about playing the Japanese </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 For a temporary fix, try the most excellent CMBO pacific Mod. Los 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Isenberg Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 you could simulate the japanese use Italians(their tanks would be the closest),raise the fanatic level to say 50 to 75 percent most maps are going to just be covered in forests use large buildings and lots of bunkers to simulate tunnel complexes Originally posted by Mailer: If they only would make a pacific front, then we would have the entire war. We have the west, we have the east, and soon we have Africa. But I can not feel complete until my men take Hernderson field at Guadalcanal. Yes, it is true that I can enjoy the entire war with Talonsoft's excellent campaign series, but these games seem to have lost their lustre after Combat Mission. Why can't it be? I read an interview with the boys down at Battlefront at Wargamer.com. They said the Combat Mission engine just didn't suit the Pacific because of all the Naval action and Island hopping. But I disagree. See, at the Batallion, Division level that CM simulates, there were TONS of infantry/armor engagements. And you wouldn't really be doing "island hopping" at this scale any more than you would have to make sure Patton stayed supplied during Operation Cobra in Beyond Overlord. I guess what I'm saying, is that on the tactical scale, things in the Pacific aren't all that different than things in Europe. It's like this. The West Front has kind of become the Brittany Spears of Computer Wargamming. We have thousands of games that put us right on Omaha Beach--and it's all because of Tom Hanks and Saving Private Ryan. Now don't get me wrong here, I love gaming on the West Front, but with so little coverage of the Pacific Front, I just wish my favorite WW2 Wargame of all time would cover it. So don't think I'm harshing on Battlefront, because the boys can make a damn fine game, but let us not forget the sacrafices of our brothers who fought in the Pacific, where EVERY DAY was like landing on the Beeches of Normandy. I mean, how many beeches did the Marines storm in the south pacific? Yet I haven't once seen Tom Hanks wading to shore on one of these tropical hell holes. Anyway, is there anyway we can talk you into it? Mailer -------------------- Mailer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailer Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 Regarding Henderson Field-- It was undefended the FIRST time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Mailer: Regarding Henderson Field-- It was undefended the FIRST time. So you were talking about playing the Japanese 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailer Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 I've been thinking about trying some of the pacific war mods for cmbo, but 1. Everytime I get a game, I end up adding so many mods and scenerios that it becomes an unwieldy mess that I'm afraid to touch. I kept Operation Flashpoint installed on my machine for years just because I didn't want to mess up the delicate balance of scnerios, patches, and mods. Now that Operation Flashpoint is uninstalled, I want to play it again, but know I'm going to have to go through hell to get it back the way I had it. I don't want this to happen to combat mission. 2. If the mods aren't DAMN GOOD, they will only leave me wanting more and feeling unsatisfied. I don't know how extensive the mods are, so if someone could clue me in about them, AND where to find them, I may give them a shot. 3. Yes, you can use mostly forest, but to really simulate the region, I think you need DENSE Jungle tiles, as well as palm trees( you could use tall pines, but tall pines simulate all the undergrowth etc. and are a poor substitet for scattered palms. Plus they just wouldn't look right. 4. Bonzai charges would probably work like human wave, but japanese troops were much better than Russian Conscripts. 5. Coral Reef--some of the beech landing involved wading in on extensive layers of coral reef, all while being fired on by the enemy. Cant see a way to sim that with cmbo and cmbb 6. of course a pacific front release would have to include the combat in China and india, which would allow for an awesome array of various units. Just thought I would mention that. Im certainly no expert on the pacific front, and I blame the video game companies, because in the begining, my knowledge starts from there. (as I come across things in video games, I generally read up on them and am stimulated to learn more) So Battlefront, if you care about my continuing education, a prompt release of the pacific front (following N Africa of course) would be much appreciated. Mailer 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailer Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 Yes, Japanese. Although I must admit I have a bias toward playing American forces in these games, I'm dying to get my chops on some Japanese infantry! These guys just don't quit. EDIT-- When the Japanese came back to Guadalcanal, the Americans were REALLY dug in [ October 31, 2003, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: Mailer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 3) Perhaps Scattered trees would suffice for scattered palms? 4) IIRC, troops other than conscripts can make Human wave charges. Add in the fanatiscim and conscripts are a fair bit more dangerous. True, their firepower goes down, but that would fit as most Japanese small arms weren't great 5) Set a shallow/deep ford out from your beach for a mile or two. Advance. As for the assertation that the western front gets all the attention, where have you been for the last year? everyone else has been fighting in Russia. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 May I remind that not all of the war in Europe is done yet? Let me refresh your memory: 1939 - Germany and Soviet Union invade Poland, Soviet Union invades Finland 1940 - Germany invades Denmark and Norway, then invades France, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg. Italy participates in invading France and also invades Greece. 1941 - Germany invades Yugoslavia and Greece Early war really deserves modelling. There is no excuse for missing out Finns knocking out T-35's with toothpicks! Also the hypothetical "1946 - The Secret Weapons of the Panzerwaffe" could be interesting. Having P1000's receive attacks by Tortoises and IS-3's would be something... Okay, Pacific theater is fine, but I don't know if the infantry engagements were that interesting. Unlike in Europe, most of that war was about naval and air domination. And with support from a naval Task Force, the infantry battles will be rather one-sided affairs. Not exactly a Stalingrad equivalent (of course if the Chinese are included, then...). But my knowledge is sketchy. Could you highlight some important land campaign? Japanese invasion of Philippines? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailer Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 With my limited knowledge of pacific front, I'll try to highlight some of the engagments that I feel would fit Combat mission like a glove. Guadalcanal--this campaign had a ton of infantry vs. infantry fighting. First the Americans took the island, giving them bombing ability all over the South Pacific, but the Japs managed to sneak a ton of infantry on the island at night and there was HORRENDOUS night and day fighting. Tons of Naval and Air bombardment from both sides and close range, tommy gun in the face fighting. THIN RED LINE--the movie, is set during the Guadalcanal campaign, although it only covers a small portion of the fighting. Okinawa--a complex and savage engagment on the island of Okinawa--all branches of the military were involved and the fighting was fierce. Phillipines--Japanese invasion was pretty much a straight inf vs. inf affair. After they took it, Macarthur said, "I will Return" and he did. More savage fighting in villages, jungle, etc. More Tommy gun right in your face fighting. Luzon--I think Luzon is a large island off of the phillipines, and more infantry combat occured here. The Burmese trail--Combat engineers had to build this logistics wonder through India and they were duking it out with japanese infantry the entire time. Rangoon--Savage infantry fighting in China. Think about the terrain and the dense ancient cities. Need I say more? Iwo Jima--You know, the statue with the nine soldiers raising the American flag on the hard won mountain top. Tell me you dont want to fight your way up that mountain and I'll drop the subject right now. This one moment alone is worth Battlefront recreating the front. Not to mention the fighting was fierce. Sure we bombed the crap out of it, but those japs just dug in Deep and we had to root them out of every little nook and cranny of this volcanic island. Tarawa--dont know much about this one, but I think it was the one with the coral reef landing and it give the omaha beech landing a run for its money. Kyushu--this large island right off the coast of Japan was going to be the first step in operation Olympic--the ground invasion of Japan! It was a large, dense, mountainous island and it was going to be HELL taking it back. Fortunatly for US G.I.s, the atomic bomb came along and ended the war before this operation began. No reason hypothetical invasion can't be simulated. Operation Olympic--Invade Japan! it didn't happen, but it nearly did! ONce again, great for Combat Mission. I know I wouldn't want to land on that beech. There are many more islands, and each island had dozens of different engagments that could be moddeled. There are more than enough real and even a few hypothetical situations to include. Remember, that many of these islands would start out as lush, tropical paradises, but in the end, they were blackened, charred, smoking rubbleheaps--all the trees were litte toothpicks--and fighting amongst the ruin and desolation were G.I.s and Japs! Like Flamethrowers? They burned everything in sight with flamethowers. Like Artillary? Both sides used a ton. Urban, village, rural, jungle settings. Exotic setting in India, China, Phillipines, South Pacific, etc. Yes, much of the Pacific was fought on the ocean in boats and planes, but much of Europe was foought in the air as well, that doesn't mean there wasn't a ton of ground combat. No sir, the south pacific was not short of ground combat. I will say that it might be a little short on armor engagments, but this only adds to the challenge as you try to bring your armored vehicles and even Trucks and jeeps to bear in this dense, unfriendly terrain. Its a logistics nightmare, its savage face to face combat, and its terror in the night with hammering artillary and chattering machine guns. BONZAI! the Japanese cry as they charge over the ridge in a relentless wave of death. You keep mowing them down with the fifty cal but they just keep coming. They dont care if they live or die. EDIT__ Forgive me if a few of my facts are off, as I am not quite as knowledgable about the Pacific as I am other theaters and even time periods. But the above should give you a pretty good taste of what the theater holds. Also, I have this great article about the fight for Hendersons field, and if I find it, I will quote some of it here on the forum so you can read it and imagine the fun you would be having if you were playing it on Combat Missino EDIT AGAIN-- sorry, last one, I promise-- Like variety of troop types? Some nationalities include-- Japan Communist China The other China (dont remember what its called, china split at this time) USA, England, Australia, India, the fighting Phillipinos! Even Russia if Combat Mission felt like exploring a few hypotheticals. I think there were even some more little wierd nations involved as well. Thanks, Mailer [ October 31, 2003, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: Mailer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 MikeT has amassed and refurbished CMMOS for CMBO which includes a pacific conversion 'kit' with palm trees, jungles, kit & scenarios to match. He'll be post the entire caboodle on the CMMOD website when, to coin a phrase, it's ready 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hooded One Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Mailer: ...Bonzai charges...I think you mean banzai ; bonzai are miniature trees. But they could have been using them for camoflage, I suppose. The problem with the Pacific Front at tactical level is that it is just plain dull due to the lack of tank battles, IMHO. As an example of this, Talonsoft's East and West Front games were great, but when they ventured east with Rising Sun, it just lost something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailer Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 Sergei-- Germany, soviets invade poland--isn't this modeled in CMBB? Germany invades Denmark Norway--yeah, forgot about this. Don't know much about it. Is it reasonable material for Combat Mission? Germany invades France, Belgium...Screw it, the Blitzkrieg. Yes, you are right, I would love to see this portion of the war modeled. Once again, I got to give props to Talonsofts West Front, because they do model the invasion of Poland and France. I would enjoy using renaults and Chars and such. Good idea. Germany invades Yugoslavia and Greece--I think that CMAK will cover the Germany invasion of Greece. Not sure about that. Seems like I read that there would be some ITaly vs. France action too, not sure. Can't you model Germany invading Yugo in CMBB? Seems like they offer Yugo units, not sure though. I know they have Hungarian and Romanian. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailer Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 I make no claims at being able to spell. regarding plain dull-- Yes, I mentioned before that there certainly would be a shortage of tank engagements. As I favor infantry it is not as big an issue with me, I think that several players will fall on either side of the fence with this one. But keep in mind that these battles weren't totally without tanks and vehicles. There were quite a number of tanks involved in a lot of the combat, more on the US side, but some on the japanese side as well. And there were QUITE a number of other support vehicles and AFVs used. I think that the bulk of engagments would be heavy on infantry, with maybe a Sherman or Two, a few trucks, a jeep, and maybe a couple of Greyhounds.--which is about my favorite force mix, basically, lots of infantry with some armored support. Sure, you would lose the armor heavy engagments of the East front, but thats why its a different game and a differnet theater, each theater should FEEL fundementally different. But I do understand--if your primary interest is heavy tank engagments, then the Pacific Front would most likely dissappoint. Also, about Talonsoft, I didn't think that Rising Sun was bad at all--in fact, I thought it was the best of the three, even though the Pacific isn't my favorite theater. My favorite theater is probably Russia, although I'm forced to admit, that it is a close contest with the overexposed, yet endlessly fun West front. My least favorite front is probably Africa, but I enjoy the crap out of it too. Actually, I take that back--My least favorite is probably Sicily-Italy--But I am looking forward to learning more about it when CMAK comes out--who knows, maybe Italy will become my favorite front. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailer Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 Wicky-- Looking forward to giving it a shot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Graeme Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 I get the impression some people think a Pacific War CM would be 'dull' because it's just infantry in the trees. That's like saying CMBB is 'dull' because it's just a bunch of tanks churning across the snow. We know the incredible variety of scenarios dreamed up by fans of CMBO & CMBB. The same could easily be done with CMPW. As previously mentioned, there's a wide range of possibilities. If you include the Chinese/Japanese war -- Actually I'd like two new games. One devoted to the C/J war up till dec 1941, the second covering post dec 7th events --you get a huge assortment of terrain: desert, barren hills, rice fields, forests, jungle, exotic cityscapes, SE Asian countries, and the Pacific Islands. And the Islands are not all the same. Different climate, different soil, different vegetation. Throw in defensive installations geared to the unique topography of each island and you have an entirely different challenge in every scenario. Many islands are too big to fit CM, even as operations. You'd have to do selected areas. Think of the possibilities! The Marines defending Wake Island! Fictional Japanese landing on Hawaii! The final Japanese assault on Corregidor! The charge of 12 Japanese light tanks across the airbase at Peleliu! Assaulting Purple Heart Ridge on Saipan! Not enough tanks? The Nationalist Chinese had a bunch of 1930s tankettes. Create a scenario with them battling hordes of Japanese tanks. In fact, the Nationalists purchased military equipment wherever they could. They had a tremendous assortment of 1930s tankettes and artillery. For them as loves the early stuff, would be extremely interesting! Troops would include Russians (those late 1930s battles with the Japanese, plus near end of war conflict), Korean conscripts, both Nationalist and Communist Chinese forces, the Vichy French in Vietnam (who gave in to the Japanese, but what if they had fought?), etc., etc. CMPW would be AT LEAST as interesting, challenging and exciting as the other CM games. To those fascinated with the history of the Pacific War, it would be better than the others. And as a hint to Battlefront, I rather imagine a CM game devoted in whole or in part to the C/J War might tap a gigantic market in Japan and China. But on the other hand, it's the creative genius of the Battlefront gang which has produced our beloved CM games. If, for whatever reason, they are just not interested.... oh well. I wouldn't like to see them force themselves to work through a project. I'd much rather have them create the games they find exciting to create, because that's what makes their games so good for us. Nevertheless, I maintain that the CMPW concept is not the drab, ho hum affair many appear to think it is, but rather, potentially at least, an intensely exciting and gripping game. So while I don't want to annoy the Battlefront guys by whining and insisting they 'must' do a CMPW, I will state as a fact that I for one would be delighted if they came out with such a game and would buy it immediately. I'm fairly certain I'm not alone in this. My two cents worth. Cheers all! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 I have to admit that I'd quite like to play pacific/SE Asia theatre too. It will never happen with the current Combat Mission engine though as CMAK is the last game in that series. BFC have said on a number of occasions that they've got no interest in doing the Pacific theatre, so that doesn't bode too well for CMX2 either. However, they have said that they hope to make the CMX2 engine far more flexible than the current one. That being the case I can't see that the Pacific theatre would be potentially that difficult to model. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooz Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Count me in for the PTO. put me in charge of the maps--I live five hours north of Shanghai, three hours from Nanjing, and five hours south of Tai er chuang--the site of China's first victory over the Japanese. Dull? If you like CM just for the tank battles then I say "to each his own". What you lose with armor engagements will be offset by the rich diversity in forces. Chinese vs Japanese; Red Chinese vs Japanese; Red Chinese vs Chinese (there would be a ton of cool Chinese Civil War battles pitting Red Army Jap Chi-Ha tanks against Nationalist Stuart tanks with human waves being conducted by BOTH sides); Russians vs Japanese (three time periods--1938 at Lake Khasan--near North Korea; 1939 at Khalkin Gol--Russian title; or Nomonhan--Japanese name; 1945 Manchuria; British/Commonwealth vs Japanese; Early war (1941) US AND Philippines forces versus Japanese, Philippine Guerillas vs Japanese; and there are also the "Chih Hua Pu" [sic] which are US equipped Chinese forces kicking butt in Burma and southern China; French vs Japanese or French vs Thai battles; and then there is also the recondite "Indian National Army fighting as Japanese Allies fighting against the British/Commonwealth. :cool: Dull? I think taking out Jap AI bunkers and caves will be a lot more realistic than watching--and laughing as the AI attempts an armored attack. Maybe by 2012 CM will have an engine that can effectively recreate landing craft and amphibious vehicles. Doesn't sound the least bit dull to me. Yep, bring it on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Mailer: (Snips) Luzon--I think Luzon is a large island off of the phillipines, and more infantry combat occured here. Kyushu--this large island right off the coast of Japan was going to be the first step in operation Olympic--the ground invasion of Japan! It was a large, dense, mountainous island and it was going to be HELL taking it back. Fortunatly for US G.I.s, the atomic bomb came along and ended the war before this operation began. No reason hypothetical invasion can't be simulated. Luzon is actually the largest island in the Phillippines -- Manilla is located on Luzon. Kyushu is one of the four main islands of Japan; while it is the southern most of the four, it is not "off the coast of Japan", it is a part of Japan. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Trick Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Ant: I have to admit that I'd quite like to play pacific/SE Asia theatre too. It will never happen with the current Combat Mission engine though as CMAK is the last game in that series. BFC have said on a number of occasions that they've got no interest in doing the Pacific theatre, so that doesn't bode too well for CMX2 either. However, they have said that they hope to make the CMX2 engine far more flexible than the current one. That being the case I can't see that the Pacific theatre would be potentially that difficult to model. I too would love to see the Pacific Theatre modeled in CMX2 -- I think that the variety of battles would be as great as those seen on the Eastern Front, minus the huge armor engagements. My guess is that it won't happen, however, even with a more flexible engine. Battlefront seems to put a premium on detailed and accurate modeling of vehicles, especially armor, as one of the factors that separate them from other game companies. The infantry intensive combat in Asia and the Pacific is less likely to appeal to them as developers. And a flexible engine design is only helpful after one has completed the many hundreds of hours of research into TO&E, vehicle specs, orders of battle, uniforms and infantry arms, etc. If the developers are not inherently interested in the Pacific Theater they probably have not done any research into these factors, and starting research from scratch in an area they are not interested in seems pretty unlikely to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phemur Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 The problem with the Pacific Front at tactical level is that it is just plain dull due to the lack of tank battles, IMHO.Tanks aren't the be-all, end-all of WWII combat, IMHO. I much prefer commanding a large infantry force. In most of my games, I'll go with a lot of infantry. My infantry boys have faced off against pure armor forces, and have managed to win on several occasions. As a matter of fact, I've yet to have a strong armored force beat me in combat. But that could be due to the poor quality of my opponents. In any case, I'd love to see CMPW, for no other reason that having a Naval Gun FO. Phemur 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.