You have got to be kidding

[FaxisAxis]

How on earth do you play barbarossa to berlin and actually win? I have read the online strategy guide, the manual, and forums here such as tips and tricks and nontheless each attempt I've made has been a wash.

My guys always get pinned, shaken and even broken and could not hit the broad side of a barn. they also many time don't do what they are asked, such as a simple instruction like contact and hide a little ways through the trees. I had just played a senerio (Gefechtsaufklaerung) as the germans and these guys where totally useless, no matter how much protection and cover and support I gave them. I mean I had like two rifle plats and a machgunner firing at a couple of guys and a mortor (who did seem to know what to do despite his vantage point) all had excellent cover though and where getting pinned and shaken and eventually had one or two of the russians actually charge them down throught the feild and my guys couldn't even hit them; they where right out in the open! and my guys where in the trees with perfect line of sight! In another incident I had a rifle man run at my tank down the hill and he throw a maltiv cocktail and killed one of my men in the tank and rendered it something drastic like "immoble" or ready to evacuate. How did he even have the balls to do this one rifle man how did he even manage to stop my tank and one of the main guys in it?!!! This is just plan silly.

I had high hopes for this game from what I've read about it and what I've played as far as combat mission demos go: afrika corps etc. But after reading other peoples strategies and ways to play this game and aplying them I can see its a very unrealistic and unbalanced game. I don't know maybe you can only win if you are on the defensive or playing another human player, but to be on the offensive and win it takes some kind of to use your expression "gamey" trick something specific to this game not real world tactics definitely not.

Now you can either get cranky and conceited ostracize me and tell me its all my fault I'm a hopeless idiot and don't understand how to play (which isn't true I've read enough on how to play) or give me the main secret that will keep my men from being shaken, panicing, breaking, while under cover the minute they make contact and have heavy long range gunners behind them and where they can actually hit something and kill it -maybe there's a patch I don't know about, everthing seems a mystery about this game the guides are full of strategies that seem plausibly and in theory would work well in a real work situations but don't actually when aplied in this game.

Also, I tryed the renowned veteran jasonC's tactics for beating the germans in jaegermeister as well as the manuals advanced tutorial and guess what...: it doesnt work! You playing a different game my friend? ( your russians will panic no matter and there simply isn't enough turns and they always see you even hiden way down in the hills; going all the way to the left is too long with too many trees that your tanks can't get through-I've tryed ever possible route through there) maybe it does with something else I don't know about-like a patch or the editor- but really it is impossible.

I'm not trying to "flame" or be a "troll". but does anyone in this forum have the balls to say something they don't like about this game- has anyone ever? About some of the obvious stuff such as I've mentioned in this post.

[CobaltTiger]

I have not played the Gefechtsaufklaerung scenario but just looking at in the editor I can see why you might have had trouble. You're outnumbered roughly 4 to 1, are more or less flanked from the outset, and have a limited setup zone that looked to be under fire from the word go. Having to work with scattered trees as your cover in those circumstances is hardly ideal. Scattered trees hardly count as cover at all in my mind and from looking at the scenario it doesn't surprise me that your troops spent a lot of the time pinned.

As for some of the points you mention... until you get a feel for what you can safely ask your infantry to do yes, they'll be spending a lot of time pinned, shaken, or what have you. I used to hate infantry because they would spend most of the game face down on the ground getting shot at. Eventually I learned and it's gotten a lot better. There is a lot of helpful advice on this forum, but far more valuable is time spent with the game seeing how it works for yourself.

Given the miniscule map for that scenario I can also understand the russians being able to charge you. It's not *that* far of a sprint and given the weight of fire your guys were taking they probably just were unable to fire back enough to stop it. The same goes for the molotov that got your tank. It was probably more than one guy (not sure what fog of war you're using, but usually seeing just one man running doesn't mean there's only one man in the squad) and they got lucky. That's all. Most of the time a molotov will make a pretty glow but that's it. I've had vehicles far less sturdy than the StuG you get in that scenario have 3 or 4 molotovs tossed on them with no effect.

I suggest you play some quick battles until you get acquainted better with the game. If you're having trouble with infantry do something like an infantry only force mix, 300 to 500 points, mid day, random year, random terrain, until you find yourself annihilating the AI.

Alternately, you can try playing scenarios hotseat against yourself. This is how I taught myself, and it's a good way to get a feel for the game without having to worry about losing terribly and getting frustrated. You still might lose terribly, but at least you'll be winning at the same time.

[tar]

If your guys are always getting pinned, and the enemy doesn't seem to be, then you are probably pushing your infantry too hard. In fact, by and large, real-world tactics (not Hollywood tactics) do work well in this game. You do have to be a bit careful and can't just charge in. And you have to get used to the soldiers sometimes seeking cover rather than follow what they think are foolish and dangerous orders. If you find them not following orders a lot, then you need to find better orders for them.

It takes a while to get a good feel for when you have sufficiently softened up the enemy so that you can assault. (I just blew it in a game against the AI and got slaughtered when I assaulted what I thought was a pinned German parachute squad. It wasn't)

What is important is figuring out how to properly combine and operate the various types of units and weapons that you have.

Compounding this is the lack of information due to Fog of War. You can't directly see the morale state of enemy troops, so there is both some guesswork and some experience needed to gauge that. For example, you have to observe how much time the enemy spends face-down.

You also have to realize that the visual representation of infantry units is abstacted. If you set the 3-man squads option, then the display (once you get close enough) will show one figure for every 4 men in the squad. That gives you some idea. Also, unless you get very close, you won't see the actual count and casualties. That one man charge could have easily been several men, who did suffer casualties on the way in. It is also possible that the unit had turned fanatic. It happens, and then they tend to fight to the last man and be very hard to suppress.

And your protestations to the contrary, I don't think you have learned how to operate the forces in this game. It requires some subtlety and thought. It requires planning. And it requires patience, to work forces up without pushing them too hard. And once your troops are pinned, then won't be able to provide effective firepower and are vulnerable to getting shot up, panicked and broken.

From the forces you describe it sounds like you have CMBB. Do you really have trouble with the tutorial for that game, while following the instructions? It isn't a walk-over, but it is certainly a scenario that is very difficult for the Germans to win playing against the AI (which is a notoriously bad attacker). Winning as the Russians should be fairly easy, especially if you follow the tutorial instructions. (The CMAK tutorial is more challenging!)

Perhaps if we knew a bit more about exactly what sorts of commands you like to give your troops, we would be able to give more specific advice.

A few other points. You need to differentiate between sound contacts and real contacts. Generally you shouldn't give a lot of specific targetting orders. Let your men pick their own targets. Later on you will know when to override their choices, but for now let the soldiers choose.

Something else you could try (although I really hesitate to recommend it, since it will make learning other valuable lessons difficult) is to play a game with the FOW turned off entirely. It will at least let you see what effect, if any, you are having.

===================

One thing to do is look in the game-specific forums and search out some of the amazingly long posts by JasonC. Use the search function. He gives very detailed instructions on how to handle the infantry. I see that you are at least somewhat familiar with his posts, but it would be worthwhile going back to them, since you clearly haven't internalized them.

By the way, if you actually lost a tank to a Molotov cocktail, you have my condolences. They seem to be one of the most useless weapons in the game...

[jBrereton]

Molotov cocktails are actually alright in the hands of Elite Finnish Sissi squads, against halftracks. That's just about their only use.

People who go "ah yeah, I'll just human wave this Russian conscript rifle 44 company where there are a few Molotovs about towards this tank and I'll clearly take out that bloody Tiger" are horribly deluded.

Because not only will most of the conscripts piss themselves and run off, most of the Molotovs that do get thrown will miss, and you'll be pretty lucky to get a kill with a hitting one.

They're only good against open-topped, unarmed vehicles that are bogged, preferably, unless someone really special is using them, (Elite/Crack infantry, basically) in which case they are of some use against a slow moving, weakly armed and armoured target, that's preferably open-topped.

Tank Destroyers can fall foul of them, as well as halftracks, but getting infantry into a position in which they might threaten a tank destroyer is far more easily said than done.

[Lt. Smash]

First, let me say that this is a spoiler. I discuss Gefechtsaufklaerung in a bit of detail. If you don't want to know the details, don't read this post.

Now...

Originally posted by FaxisAxis:

...I had just played a senerio (Gefechtsaufklaerung) as the germans and these guys where totally useless, no matter how much protection and cover and support I gave them...

This post is good timing. While I can say that I am re-aquanting myself with the CM series after a long lay-off, I am really finding that I am relearning the game and unlearning bad habits.

I say this post is good timing because I've just played and replayed Gefechtaufklaerung. I've read some posts on this board that talk about how easy it was but I've struggled with it. I'll related my experiences to (a) hopefully make you feel like you're not alone, ( perhaps give you some ideas as to how to do better, and © solicit advice from other readers.

I have felt I've done a pretty good job supressing the enemy. I have used the mortar, machine gun, infantry gun and off-map arty to surpress Russians hiding in the wheatfields and village. I advance my infantry, letting them leapfrog one another while I position them in the little valley short of the roadblock/wire. I can usually get my infantry into position with little to no losses. I then try to flank the enemy with my AFVs (ala the CMBB Strategy Guide -- which is great by the way) which usually results in a few Russian tank hunters trying to play hero. They always die.

My challenge has been succesfully assaulting the church. I am not sure if I am being too aggressive or not aggressive enough but once the shells stop falling from my arty, I try to move forward with one or two squads while providing overwatch from the machine gun, AFV and remaining infantry but, inevitably, the Russians are too strong or rally while my troops are in the open. In the best cases, my guys get pinned before they reach the church and end the scenario face-down in the dirt. In the worst cases, they get slaughtered en route to the church and never make it back to the scattered trees in the valley or high tail it past the trees on their way back to Berlin .

So, don't feel too bad. I agree with the other poster. Practice makes perfect. While I still haven't one after a few playings, I am finding my strategies and tactics are getting better. At first, I would find my squads breaking before I could make it to the valley. Now, as I said, I can make it to the valley and prep for an assault with minimal losses. With that said, if anyone has any advice as to what I am doing wrong and why I can't win this bloody scenario, I'm listening...but even getting beat, this reminds me why CM is so fun.

Bob

[Ellros]

In another incident I had a rifle man run at my tank down the hill and he throw a maltiv cocktail and killed one of my men in the tank and rendered it something drastic like "immoble" or ready to evacuate. How did he even have the balls to do this one rifle man how did he even manage to stop my tank and one of the main guys in it?!!! This is just plan silly.

Read the section in the manual about "Fanatic" troops and this will be one possible explanation.

[Kommissar]

Buddy, you really need to understand that as Lt. Smash pointed out, the mission is next to impossible to win. I've played tons and tons of CMBB and I still find myself losing the early war axis attacks (even to the AI). A lot of the scenarios just don't give you the firepower to dislodge the Russians nor the infantry to overrun them. Try playing some meeting engagements and don't despair if you don't enjoy immideate success. That Russian squad taking out your tank with a molotov is just an example of bad luck. In CM it happens. You might flank a t-34 with a panther, miss twice and watch as the t-34's conscript crew turns the tank around and takes you out in one hit. There's a good saying, "nothing corresponds less to expectations than in war."

Good hunting.

[Bannon DC]

If molitovs were that dangerous all the time it would be plain silly. But they aren't. Believe me, when your side is the one throwing the molitovs you'll want them to be much more dangerous. But the lesson should be learned... tanks need to respect infantry!

As for your guys getting pinned and panicked, make sure you keep them under command of their HQ. Especially if the commander has a moral bonus (the heart symbol). Under command is always better if even if the HQ has no bonus. Avoid placing guys where they are totally exposed to the entire map. The more fire you are taking the more likely to panic. Don't be afraid to pull back from exposed positions. You may loose men in the process but better a few than all. Use the "withdraw" command if cover is nearby (better to be under command).

As someone suggested, play QBs with match ups that interest you so you can learn what beats what. Or how to beat strong units (like Tigers or IL-2's).

Start playing 2 player games when you have figured out the basics. Good luck.

[Joachim]

Aim low - win high.

Do not plan for total victory from the start. Time pressure will lead to mistakes and unnecessary early losses. Early losses mean points for the enemy - and can't kill, thus will not score for you.

It is very important to have a realistic plan with an achievable goal. Guess how far you can advance, how many losses you will inflict and how many flags you will take. This is your realistic score.

If you try to outperform, you'll more likely perform lower than that.

In a current game I take a small gamble to capture 40% of the flag points - but I'm pretty sure I'll capture the other 60% and have already inflicted much more losses than I suffered. Guestimated result is 75:25. You'd be glad if you had a score like this in American football or basketball. Why do you need 90:10 in CM?

Gruß

Joachim

[FaxisAxis]

I just want to say that shortly after writing this message, like two days latter, I played that senario, Gefecht, again and all the way through and wound up with a major victory.

That was a relief. I will say that I didn't do it according to the way the strategy guide suggested, but just used some of the general tips and tactics I learned from it.

Also, my having delt with the enemy a few times before in this senario probably help me in anticipating where he was going to be- and in what form- and how to avoid having happen what happen before when I was losing.

Thank you for being patient with me and giving me some advice and encouragement.

I will continue to play. I like turn based games

involving strategy and tactics. What's more This is a game one can continue to learn about and develop new strategies and skills, not the typical RTS being the same hasteful button mashing strategies for every level and once its over that's it. This game seems to have endless replay and with enough senarios, mods and one on one to keep one busy the rest of ones life and that's not including the quick senario editor.

I must say though, that, I am very eager to get that CM:SF on my harddrive. I can hardly wait for!

[FaxisAxis]

Oh, by the way in case any of you were wondering it was a 80:20 score, which considering how bad I seemed to be doing before is pretty good. I think I had a little luck on my side as well, but nevertheless it was sweet victory!

[ng cavscout]

I am glad you gave CM a chance. I have been playing the various iterations since 2003, and I wonder why I even buy other WW2 wargames any more. These games are deep, and addictive.

You might see about getting a more experienced player to play against you PBEM and give you tips and advice as the game goes on. There is no comparison between playing the AI and playing a human opponent.

Oh, and welcome to the community, you won't find a better, more supportive crew on the net. Of course, we have our freaks and geeks, but they make things more interesting.

[Corvidae]

FaxisAxis

, HI,,

I have played and beaten Jagermiester,REPEATEDLY as soviets,

I have made my reds dance over axis corpses and across burning panzers,

I have pushed italian alpini through dense soviet defences,

I have overwhelmed russians with panzer assults,

Alpine breakout

Jagermiester

Hornets nest

A warm place to sleep

These and more i've won,

Ask JasonC about our test battle

and i'll send you a turn of jagermiester, if you are up for it, you can watch my soviets NOT panic as they stomp facisti into sewage

[ June 29, 2006, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Corvidae ]

[Corvidae]

You E-Mail isnt in your profile

heres mine

raven_song73@yahoo.com

start a PBEM game, pick axis

and send me my turn

[FaxisAxis]

zhligw@yahoo.com yeah, I did get a draw in jager about 2 weeks ago. I could have probably won if I tryed again, but by only a small margin. Currently I'm working on the "battle of minors" senario I was attacking the germans in this one last night. I wound up with a minor defeat, probably because I rushed it in the end. Any suggestions for this one? When playing as the attacter? It's the one with those funny looking french tanks the renault ##