Lady Roxanne Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Judging by gun penetration and front armor slope/thickness the Panzer IIIL and the 1942 T-34 should be a fairly close match in a 500 meter shootout. These tanks were most likely to meet one another in the summer of '42 if they met at all. A good armor scenario might be made with these tanks. EDIT: I just did a test run of this, 20 against 20. Anything can happen! Morale becomes a factor. Crews break and rout with no damage. The Russians will tend to get more kills, but it's really up in the air....a good match, lots of ricochets. [ July 20, 2003, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: CrankyKris ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Roxanne Posted July 21, 2003 Author Share Posted July 21, 2003 I was so interested in this matchup that I ran a 1 on 1, 2 minute, head-on shootout at 500 meters, exactly 400 times (20 isolated lanes). I counted KOs. I defined a KO as any condition that results in the permanent silencing of the main gun. Another thing I kept track of were situations where the gun was functional; but the crew was panicked, broken, or routed, meaning no orders could be given the following turn. I was interested to discover that a routed crew will continue to fire at the standard ROF. After 400 two minute duels at 500 meters: 176 Panzer IIIL KO'd 179 T-34 (1942) KO'd 17 German crews Panicked or worse with main gun functional. 21 Soviet crews Panicked or worse with main gun functional. This is truly an excellent and exciting matchup. It's a complete toss up at 500 meters. There are lots of partial penetrations, crew casualties, armor flaking, ricochets, etc.. The Germans have the radio, but the T-34 is a faster tank with a faster turret. The Germans have a higher ROF, but they bounce more rounds. This is the matchup I've been looking for. It will make for some tense armor fights. This pair can often go at it for two full minutes before the fight is resolved. Even after two minutes there was an occasional unresolved duel. Kris 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggDogg Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Kris, 400 tank duels ????? :eek: :eek: :eek: You need a bunch of biers, or you need to get a life. Cheers, Richard 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flesh Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 I've actually experienced this matchup in a PBEM QB. I definitely recommend it. It certainly seems to be the most "fair" that I've come across. In most matchups, it seems that the Russians need weight of numbers to defeat German armour. Not so with this matchup. To sum up, if you want a game where tactics decide the outcome, rather than the purchase screen, give this one a try. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 What's interesting about this matchup is that it removes the biggest risk in armour combat, that of your opponent buying gamey gear. I was playing a TCP/IP game yesterday and had bought a platoon of Panzer IIILs in our 2,000 point game. My opponent bought six KV-1s. My only hope of knocking them out was to use Tungsten at under 500m, and I had five tungsten rounds. If I had known he was going to be a gamey ho', I'd have turned up with Tigers and fisted him back to the stone age. :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Thanks for the info, very useful. For play balance only in TCP we have a general rule of thumb that purchasing medium tanks is not allowed prior to Mid 42, and heavy tanks not allowed prior to Mid 44. This has provided us with very balanced battles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Jerkov Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 I believe a fairer fight is the '43 T-34 and the long barreled pZIIIn's. IMO. Plus you can buy a 1/3 more t34's with the same amount as you can buy 7 pZIII's... is it fair..? [ July 21, 2003, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Major Jerkov ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 IIIN is short-barreled 75L24. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Jerkov Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Oops, I meant L's... 50mm by l60... IIRC. [ July 21, 2003, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: Major Jerkov ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Jerkov Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 So lay down, the threat is real. When his sight goes r3d a641|\/. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Roxanne Posted July 21, 2003 Author Share Posted July 21, 2003 I wasn't concerned with point value of the units, just frontal shootout capabilities. I have scenarios in mind rather than QBs. I stumbled on this match while completing the CMBB gun data tables to include info for all the angles between zero and sixty. I ran the test 400 times because it was so close. I kept expecting a spread to develop, but it never did. My apologies to my PBEM buddies. I got sidetracked yesterday. I'm sending turns again today. EDIT: Soddball, KV-1s can be defeated by the 50mm/L60. The lower hull is vulnerable. Granted, it is not an even matchup however. [ July 21, 2003, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: CrankyKris ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Roxanne Posted July 21, 2003 Author Share Posted July 21, 2003 The Panzer IIIJ(late) is the same vehicle as the Panzer IIIL except for half the MG ammo and very minor differences in rear armor. The IIIJ(late)is also the same exact price as the T-34(1942) at 108 points (no rarity). Both vehicles were fairly common in June 1942 with rarity being 5% and 10%. This is a good match for QBs too if the date is set right or rarity is not used. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRUMLIN Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Jesus wept. I wish I had the time to run 400 tests of equipment. I am playing in the ONION WARS (www.onionwars.net) and only get time for one hurried test for most games. "Oooooh look grum, your PAK50 DOES take out a KV1 in the test! Use those! Now quick, go cook dinner!" Then I get kicked in the head in the real match... Grum 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Funny, I recall a recent thread where people were commenting on how 'unlucky' PzIIIs often are against early T34s. Maybe your luck evens out if you spread it over 400 encounters! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Excellent and useful information Cranky. This really helps me and will save me a ton of time having you testing this. And what an outstanding test it was. Good job and I for one appreciate you taking the time to run this test. Good man! Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Roxanne Posted July 22, 2003 Author Share Posted July 22, 2003 You're welcome ICM1947. I've been on a quest for the perfect armor matchup for some time. I was thrilled when I found it. Let me point out that the 1941 T-34 is not as good of a matchup because, in that year, the armor quality is 95%. It drops to 90% for all the later T-34s. This is a critical few millimeters. Possibly making up for this is the thinner turret front of the 1941 T-34, although I haven't tested this. I just know the 1942 version is a terrific match. In 1943 the turret gets beefed up, adding to Russkie survival rate against the 50mm/L60. [ July 21, 2003, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: CrankyKris ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 It's a close contest as long as the ground is dry... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Roxanne Posted July 22, 2003 Author Share Posted July 22, 2003 hehe....that's certainly true. I even had a couple bogs in my testing on dry ground when Pz IIIs backed off due to gun damage or flaking or whatever. There be lots of ground pressure with those Pz IIIs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenfedoroff Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 *********** minor spoiler ************ I am currently playing a scenario: "B&T, Forgotten Front" (August, '42).......that seems to support the test results. As long as my T-34s stay hull-down against my opponents panzers, the slug-fest will continue. Some of my tanks may actually run out of AP. Fun scenario so far. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavka_lite Posted July 28, 2003 Share Posted July 28, 2003 I want to thank you all for confirming that the T-34 is not the 1941 Uber-tank and that my tests weren't skewed. I was using H models and they did quite well and even came out ahead with crack crews when the odds were 1:1. The rate of fire is amazing for the Mk III Hs with the 50mm. My regular opponent now has no reason to whine when I bring out the T-34s. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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