Moon, please read

[walpurgis nacht]

OK, thank you again for confirming via Charles that experience DOES effect morale bonus (i.e. +2 morale is a better bonus in a vet HQ than a green one).

Next question:

During setup I organize all of my infantry forces based on HQ quality. I usually take the worst platoon's HQ and replace him with the CO HQ because he is usually better. Question is, how do we measure morale more specifically? Is a +2 morale "green" HQ better than a +1 morale "regular" HQ? Is there some sort of chart that could be posted so we could better understand this?

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

OK, thank you again for confirming via Charles that experience DOES effect morale bonus (i.e. +2 morale is a better bonus in a vet HQ than a green one).

Actually Moon was wrong about that one.

A regular unit behaves the same under a conscript HQ with 2+ combat bonus as under an elite HQ with 2+ bonus.

The HQ itself behaves differently, but not the units it controls.

During setup I organize all of my infantry forces based on HQ quality. I usually take the worst platoon's HQ and replace him with the CO HQ because he is usually better. Question is, how do we measure morale more specifically? Is a +2 morale "green" HQ better than a +1 morale "regular" HQ? Is there some sort of chart that could be posted so we could better understand this?

That effect isn't there in first place. But in general a bonus from a HQ is exactly the same thing as one experience level up. A regular squad under a 2+ combat HQ has exactly the same combat capablity as a crack squad under a HQ with no bonus.

The only thing I wonder is whether a HQ profits from its own bonusses. It obviously should. E.g. a stealth 2+ green HQ should be as stealthy as a 0+ veteran HQ (for itself, not the units it controls).

[ June 28, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Moon]

Actually Redwolf is wrong about that one A conscript HQ +2 unit is worse than a veteran HQ +2. To quote Charles: "The + is relative to unit experience". This comes straight from Charles, and answers Walpurgis' follow up question as well, I think.

Martin

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Thanks for clearing that up.

You don't happen to have hard numbers for it, have you? On occasion I go a bit OTT and micro manage things to extract the last bit of advantage I can from the game, and this one question has always been a bit clear.

For example is regular +1 equal to veteran 0? If not, to what extend?

[Vanir Ausf B]

German '43 infantry squad, regular quality:

</font>

• Command delay with conscript HQ w/+2 command bonus: 7 seconds</font>

</font>

• Command delay with elite HQ w/+2 command bonus: 7 seconds</font>

You be the judge.

To answer redwolf's question, the conscript HQ's command delay is 31 seconds with no command bonus, 14 seconds with +2.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

German '43 infantry squad, regular quality:

</font>

• Command delay with conscript HQ w/+2 command bonus: 7 seconds</font>

</font>

• Command delay with elite HQ w/+2 command bonus: 7 seconds</font>

You be the judge.

To answer redwolf's question, the conscript HQ's command delay is 31 seconds with no command bonus, 14 seconds with +2.

I think perhaps you don't know what "command" bonus is supposed to be for Vanir. It does not effect command delay at all, it only effects command range.

Moon, my question actually still stands. I understand what Charles said, now I'm just trying to line things up more specifically.

When the bonus is even (+2), the better HQ is easy to discern because the experience level trumps all. So, is a +2 morale/combat bonus with a green HQ, better than say, a +1 morale/combat bonus with a veteran HQ? How exactly can we tell?

[ June 28, 2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

I think perhaps you don't know what "command" bonus is supposed to be for Vanir. It does not effect command delay at all, it only effects command range.

You are wrong. It affects both.

Regular quality German '43 infantry squad delay under command of:

</font>

• HQ with no command bonus: 14 seconds</font>

</font>

• HQ with +1 command bonus: 10 seconds</font>

</font>

• HQ with +2 command bonus: 7 seconds</font>

[Vanir Ausf B]

Another test showing that HQ experience makes no difference.

75mm Pak 40 gun targeting T-34 M1943 at 400 meters:

</font>

• First shot chance-to-hit with no HQ: 63%</font>

</font>

• Hit chance with elite HQ w/+2 combat bonus: 76%</font>

</font>

• Hit chance with conscript HQ w/+2 combat bonus: 76%</font>

[xerxes]

Vanir scores a Total Victory in this thread. Wow, you rarely see such a convincing domination.

p.s. I had no idea that the command bonus reduces the order delay time.

[tabpub]

Originally posted by xerxes:

Vanir scores a Total Victory in this thread. Wow, you rarely see such a convincing domination.

p.s. I had no idea that the command bonus reduces the order delay time.

TKO for Vanir!

And Xerxes: that is why you buy cheap Russian Infantry by the battalion. Increases the chance that you get a company or Batt CO that can find both his butt cheeks in the dark...other wise, it's like herding cats out there...

[Moon]

I can't doublecheck with Charles currently, but as soon as he's back I'll clarify with him.

Martin

[kenfedoroff]

Originally posted by tabpub:

And Xerxes: that is why you buy cheap Russian Infantry by the battalion. Increases the chance that you get a company or Batt CO that can find both his butt cheeks in the dark...other wise, it's like herding cats out there...

LOL... Amen Comrade.

It does model how important leadership was to a successful action, and why there was such a high loss-rate among junior officers (on both sides).

In many accounts of the Eastern Front, the platoon, company and battalion commanders were constantly in the thick of things.

Ken

[Redwolf]

I am sure I am correct.

I did my "antitank mortar" tests and the patterns of onboard mortars show the effect of the HQs very well. There is no difference between a 2+ conscript and 2+ elite HQ on the accuracy of the mortar, although the effect of 0+, 1+ and 2+ combat can be seen very clearly.

The command delay test further up in this thread is even better.

[ June 29, 2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[eichenbaum]

I did encounter accurancy improvements when changing command :

A 45mm PAK gun tried to knock a PzIII and only hit the front armour 8 times (Ricochet). While switching command, from a Veteran Lt. to a Green Colonel, the Colonel shouted something in Russian (I couldn't understand). The first shot after this "direct order?" was a turret penetration, knocking the PzIII out.

Scenario : CMBB Scenario "Blitzkrieg" 1941

Eichenbaum

[Battlefront.com]

Sorry for the confusion. I think I misunderstood Martin's question when he asked me about this a while back. So here's the deal:

The effect of, say, a+2 leadership modifier is totally unrelated to the experience level of the HQ.

However in practice, a veteran +2 HQ is less likely himself to panic compared to, say, a conscript +2 HQ, meaning that the subordinates can likely count on that +2 bonus remaining viable and nearby for longer under fire. A +2 HQ who is a mile away and running scared is effectively zero.

Also, say, a veteran +2 leadership HQ has slightly better morale (for himself) than a veteran +1 leadership HQ. The HQ "leads itself" in this sense.

Also, higher experience HQs are more likely to have better leadership modifiers in the first place. A +2 conscript HQ is rare, but an elite HQ will often have +2 ratings.

Charles

[Vanir Ausf B]

Thanks, Charles.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Also, say, a veteran +2 leadership HQ has slightly better morale (for himself) than a veteran +1 leadership HQ. The HQ "leads itself" in this sense.

Interesting. Very interesting.

Michael