stalingrad questions

[coe]

I have read accounts of other city battles - berlin, aachen, Kharkov, Voronezh etc. and it seems the bitter street to street fighting lasted less than a month. What made Stalingrad so special that despite several months, the Germans never took it - was it larger? more built up? Were the Germans not was well equipped? or was it because they didn't surround and cut off the city?

Second question is at the time of Operation Uranus - lets say the Germans did deploy as well as they could (i.e. didn't concentrate all forces in stalingrad, had reserve, buffed up the satellite armies) was the line as held generally untenable and over extended? So that any russian offensive in the area of the size of Uranus would probably have caused a situation that the Germans probably would not have been able to recapture all the lost ground?

Conan

[Denwad]

I recently watched the ZDF documentary "Der Jahrhundertkreig" on Stalingrad and a luftwaffe pilot said that there were some parts of the front that were undefended.

[Sergei]

Russians kept sending replacements across Volga so as not to run out of troops. They were squeezed onto a tight perimeter which the Germans then couldn't get through, because the troop concentrations were so high and because there was so much artillery for that stretch of front. Having that river behind the city meant that Germans couldn't surround it.

I don't think Germans could have maintained such a line in its totality through the winter, even if they hadn't wasted so much strength in Stalingrad (in which case Soviet losses wouldn't have been so high either). But of course then there wouldn't have been a whole Army at the risk of being cut off and it would also have been more likely to have been pulled back.

[Wodin]

Read "Stalingrad" by Anthony Beaver. This book is THE No1 war book Ive read and Ive read hundreds.

[Joachim]

Enough troops to defend the city/no overwhelming attacker odds.

German tactics on open ground were superior (in '42). But not in a city.

German overconfidence (...let's take Caucasus and Stalingrad...)

Soviet arty.

Soviet determination - there was only a huge void behind Stalingrad. And it had that special name... no general would survive its loss.

Soviet morale

Supplies for the defenders.

Tanks directly from the assembly line... each soldier knew that defending the factories would increase his odds vs an armorless retreat into the big void behind Stalingrad.

In Aachen and Berlin the war was lost and there was more or less token resistance from 2nd rate units... old men and boys. Most soldiers thought more about surviving a lost war. Fighting rather a delaying action than a determined defense.

Kharkov and Voronezh... surrounded. Unprepared.

Gruß

Joachim

[With Clusters]

Somethings I got from the Beever book:

The preperatory bombing of Stalingrad, while it killed loads of civilians, made the city a perfect fortress, what with all the blocked streets and tangles ruins. I suppose Berlin was bombed heavily too, but over time, perhaps allowing the residents time to "clean up" the mess, and thus inadvertantly allowing easier access to the attackers?

Beever also states that Paulus was negligent in handling his remaining mobile assests, not pulling them back to Stalingrad from the Dneiper (damn, whatever the river it was that was west of the Volga - the book is packed away, and I have no map handy, sorry), and not organizing them to counter attack the Russians. The details are a bit hazy in my mind, but I believe the point was that Paulus was obeying Hitler's order to stand fast, and not attempt a "breakout"? Not sure how that would negate a possible counter attack, so I'm probably confused. I do believe Beever placed a fair amount of blame on Paulus for the initial success of Uranus though. Perhaps someone with his (or someone else's) book could provide more info?

[Dandelion]

A viable defensive position that can be resupplied and reinforced by the defender, and remains structurally intact (i.e. no need to evacuate by force of circumstance, e.g. Monte Cassino), will inevitably result in a battle of attrition. A meat grinder, ending only when one side decides it is time to end it, usually because he cannot or will not go on, Compare Verdun.

As soon as any position becomes effectively cut off, the amount of defenders, and the equipment and supplies of said defenders, becomes finite. No matter how fanatically they struggle or how splendid their position, both time and statistics are on the attacking side and the position will inevitably fall when one or the other is brought to bear (compare Brest-Litovsk).

The Soviets decided to remain in Stalingrad. And as long as they were determined to do so, theoretically the entire Red Army could have been fed into the city before the Soviets would have had to give it up. It would have taken years to grind them down. The battle of Stalingrad had the characteristics of Verdun insofar, that it never had any real prospect of ending, at least not in anything but mass attrition, given the German approach (an explicit goal in the Verdun offensive, an implicit consequence in the Stalingrad campaign).

As it happened, the Soviets proved unwilling (unable?) to go on and so they - unlike the Germans - decided to cut the city off and take it instead.

As for the Uranus undertaking, one dare think that the winter offensive would have looked different had not the extremely provocative target of AOK6 presented itself. No way of knowing of course.

But say the Germans did not enter Stalingrad, deployed defensively West of the Volga instead, and Uranus took place as it did. The pincers would probably have been severely blunted and eventually stopped, the Germans hurled back as they were every winter including the first - this time hurled way back since there is nothing but open steppe West of the Volga. But come spring, mud and halt to all operations the AOK6 and all Axis minor armies would still be around, the Soviets exhausted and in process of recovery from massive losses - in other words much like the spring of 42. Come summer, the Axis would be on the move again. The war would go on. Not an endearing prospect.

As the yanks tend to say - that's my 2 cents.

Cheers

Dandelion

[Corvidae]

Old Henrich had a farm, i worked for him for a summer, he was a heavy drinker and his accent was awfull, one day he showed me his old medals, a veteran of both wars, he had a lot of the things, he told me that he was one of the last men evacuated from stalingrad, it was january, it was snowing, Henrich was ordered to stop deserters from boarding the planes, he was standing on the ladder at the door of the tri-motor, using a russian schmiser to beat terrified men away from the plane, , a panicy officer shot him while trying to sneak on board, he fell into the plane, and then the pilot reved the engines and they were running, Henrich was watching as dozens of terrified germans tryed to hold the landing gear of the plane, they all fell, they all died, Henrich lived, untill 1993, , he was 98 yrs old,

i do recall the day we went to toronto to meet his granddaughter, a gang of skinheads was harrassing a jamacan woman at the airport, they were shouting about the arian race and other crap, Henrich walked up to them and said," i've gutted better men than you at stalingrad", he then let fly with his cane, he beat the skinheads into the ground, i think he would have killed them if airport security hadn't stopped him, ,, the skinheads were taken to hospital, Henrich was arrested, in court Henrich talked about the war a great deal, he talked about how the nazis had led germany to hell, the judge declared Henrich's actions justifiable, he was sent home with a stern warning to seek anger management help, i miss the old bastard, a proud and stuborn old veteran, and a fanatical anti facist,

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Corvidae:

Old Henrich had a farm, i worked for him for a summer, he was a heavy drinker and his accent was awfull, one day he showed me his old medals, a veteran of both wars, he had a lot of the things, he told me that he was one of the last men evacuated from stalingrad, it was january, it was snowing, Henrich was ordered to stop deserters from boarding the planes, he was standing on the ladder at the door of the tri-motor, using a russian schmiser to beat terrified men away from the plane, , a panicy officer shot him while trying to sneak on board, he fell into the plane, and then the pilot reved the engines and they were running, Henrich was watching as dozens of terrified germans tryed to hold the landing gear of the plane, they all fell, they all died, Henrich lived, untill 1993, , he was 98 yrs old,

i do recall the day we went to toronto to meet his granddaughter, a gang of skinheads was harrassing a jamacan woman at the airport, they were shouting about the arian race and other crap, Henrich walked up to them and said," i've gutted better men than you at stalingrad", he then let fly with his cane, he beat the skinheads into the ground, i think he would have killed them if airport security hadn't stopped him, ,, the skinheads were taken to hospital, Henrich was arrested, in court Henrich talked about the war a great deal, he talked about how the nazis had led germany to hell, the judge declared Henrich's actions justifiable, he was sent home with a stern warning to seek anger management help, i miss the old bastard, a proud and stuborn old veteran, and a fanatical anti facist,

I run the website at http://www.deutschesoldaten.com - would you be interested in sharing photos and stories of your grandfather via my website? I have a few personal recollections, but not many, and that was a fasicinating story you just related.

I can be contacted at madorosh@shaw.ca

Mike

[Corvidae]

Mike,, he (Henrich) wasnt my grandfather, just a farmer i worked for over a few summers, I have no photos, but i can try to remember his storys, the bad news is that...........

A) he was a bit of a drunk, so his storys were garbled to begin with,

it was over a decade ago,

C) i wasnt exactly mr sobriety myself at the time

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

but yes, he was a good freind, and his storys were probably true, although blured by time and alcohol, i'll try to get them down and pass them on to you

[Slappy]

I agree that the Beevor is great, but it deals mainly with the battle as it occured and doesn't get into a lot of what ifs or could bes. Personally, I think the germnas should have just gone around. I understand why they didn't (city name, determination, personal interest and meddling by Hitler, lack of other good Volga crossings, etc.), but that doesn't excuse it.

Stopping or pulling back to 10km to the west of the city would have given them a solid open steppe blocking position from which to launch attacks to either the North, South or both to ford the Volga. The amount of artillery and air assets used to level the city could have easily kept the Soviets at bay long enough to establish a bridgehead somewhere else if applied more tactially.

There are plenty of examples of political meddling in military planning and execution in WWII to the detriment of the latter, but Stalingrad, from the german perspective, was one of the worst and most disasterous.

[Aco4bn187inf]

For those interested in stalingrad- look for a book called "Last Letters from Stalingrad." Amazing stuff. A few are reprinted in the American Heritage History of WW2, as I recall.

a gunner writing home that they have only two rounds left. A gunner writing about seeing a Russian tank driver pinned in the hatch of his burning tank. An officer seeing a map at his HQ and realizing,"Hitler has abandoned us!" Tankers crying at the loss of their tank. And so on. And probably the most memorable phrase of anything I've read about the war: "Little Muller has lost both his arms."