towing guns on the offensive

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

How do you effectively reposition guns on the offensive? The paradox seems to be that any place where I could safely tow a gun is a place that I don't need a gun. If I want the gun to be able to shoot the enemy, that means that the enemy can shoot the gun before he gets positioned and set up.

Seems like smoke is one solution, but only very expensive smoke barrages last the couple of turns necessary to get a gun unloaded. Other tips?

[eichenbaum]

Try moving the truck behind a peice of forest and then push the gun with it's own crew into it until you have LOS on enemy targets. Of coarse you need a strip of trees and time to push the gun; a time consuming job!

[Code13]

I tend to view these kind of assets in the same way as heavy MG's.

They are mor use for long range supression and support fire/overwatch than at the point of the attack.

Depending on the gun I tend to keep them a good few hundred meters behind the point of attack.

[Bonxa]

Usually them guns can be of use even as far as 500 to 1000 meters from the enemy. It all depends on the lay of the land. Then moving them around is no problem if you keep the enemy busy at the front while you reposition guns several hundred meters off.

Otherwise I have succesfully used the trick to push the gun into LOS in some woods or trees where one side is safe and the other is 'hot' so to say. It's great fun to spring ATG ambushes on a defender who thinks that joy is reserved to himself.

[anteportas]

Buy crack guns so you can position them more than 500m from the front and still have accuracy. Also setup time is lower with higher experienced units.

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Ceterum censeo Cartaginem esse delendam

[1stUkrainianFront]

There's a really great CMAK scenario called Bieville that you could try out if you want to practice with AT guns on the offensive. It has a mixed British infantry/AT gun/tank force pushing in from the Normandy beaches vs. a tank-heavy German counterattack.

The Brits' main firepower is from several batteries of towed antitank guns.

You need to reposition the individual guns using the techniques the folks have described above.

But the additional point is that when you have enough of them -- several batteries' worth -- you can use the ATGs to establish fire dominance over key areas of the terrain **in areas where the enemy hasn't moved yet, but must move in order to accomplish his objectives**.

Any individual gun is quite vulnerable, but when used together in an integrated fashion they can establish a fabric of control over the terrain that you can then gradually push forward as you shift the guns forward a few at a time.

[Sergei]

Rather than use them for attacking, you should bring them along to support your forces against counter-attacks.

[Brent Pollock]

...which is why Bieville works.

[Carl Puppchen]

There are a lot of towed guns on the offensive in my KHAMSIN scenario up at SD. They are a pain to work with and you need to be careful about how long it takes to set up a gun - some take only a minute, some take a few minutes. I think the British 2 pounder was pretty complex vs the typical 37mm gun used by most of the other armies so it took longer to set up and was thus used in the portee mode, as well. The infantry guns are quick setup guns. But the best advice is to get behind something and then push it in place. I would also try to keep key guns under leadership HQ which reduces their delay in moving and also helps their performance on the attack w/command bonuses.

In addition I think that guns setup when the scenario starts get bonuses on concealment that don't apply to guns that move during the scenario. Guns also don't take advantage of TRP's if they have been moved, as well.

[walpurgis nacht]

-First of all run tests in the various terrain concealment types, with a variety of guns to get a "feel" for when they are spotted moving in the given terrain, and at what ranges.

-Don't obsess about finding ideal positions during setup. Better to just leave your IG guns attached to your transport until the scouting process is finished and the main enemy concentrations are isolated. You may think you have great spots from your setup zone but a keen defender is likely to make you regret this approach. Sometimes of course the defender has no reverse slope so it's possible but otherwise just hang tight.

-try to purchase the light IG guns which move quickly and have a short setup time. If your armor is inferior setup your guns to over watch one gap, and once you've crossed it have their transport right next to them so you're ready to load and relocate. Effecieny is key when you're under the gun in terms of time.

-Don't get hung up placing your guns in tree patches. The best overall terrain for gun placement (save trenches), is "rough" terrain. Newer players often underestimate the power of treebursts, and will lose their guns to a keen defender who will almost certainly purchase mortars on the defense.

-Don't feel you have to bring your guns into some great over-watch position. Unless you're sporting 150mm sIGs, you've only got so much "bang" available to you. Move your guns up only as close as you absolutley need them to be. It takes time and experience to make that judgment but you'll get good at making the call in time. Find keyholes to the critical points that need to be broken.

[anteportas]

What i often do is to plot my infantry movements and plan my gun placement accordingly. Your infantry will move to an enemy flag and will go from one bit of cover to the other to reach it. In one of those covers the enemy will be.

So try to give your guns overwatch over the cover your infantry is approaching. If they approach and there is no enemy, move your guns to overwatch on that other piece of cover. In this way you can quickly blast the defending infantry and only expose your guns to little threat.

The problem is that is not always possible to find a good overwatch to a possible enemy strongpoint and sometimes it is wiser to plan another infantry route, which is easier to overwatch.

I should buy a mix of inf guns. I find the 150mm ideal for prep bombarbment of possible enemy strongpoints, because the ammo amount will last quite long. Also they are one shot one kill guns if they use HC. The 75mm's are ideal for fast replacements, but sometimes if the enemy infantry is positioned deep into woods, you wont get a blue target line to them. The 150mm shells dont need a blue target line and have a big area affect.

[JasonC]

The way to learn to use guns on the attack is to play infantry force type engagements for a while. You don't have to take on enemy armor at first, but make yourself attack as well as defend without any armor. You will take on map guns to get overwatch and for firepower, and get used to mating your infantry movements to what they can cover - as anteportas has said. When you move up to combined arms and have jeeps or halftracks to help reposition the guns without pushing them by hand, and tanks that don't have set up times and even (!) have armor, it will all seem so much easier (as Adam has hinted). But it is well worth learning the hard way, first. Try it with the Rumanians and the Russians in CMBB, the Italians in CMAK. A few on map "75s" and MGs will soon seem like the natural order of things, and tanks a bizarre innovation that combine them and make them mobile.

[Paul AU]

Buying guns in an unseen (offensive)battlefield is just a gamble.

But, if you like a gamble:

Just push-‘em. Towing is too fiddly.

The idea is to “clear” (or at least heavily engage) the field of gun-killers that are likely to be in range, usually with your armour.

This makes your guns (And for some reason I’m assuming you mean Infantry guns, not AT guns) are finally pushed into action, along a road, at best, on a hill, certainly, after your armour is already well engaged, or ready to become so,

These guns are second-half or end-game players. The gamble can pay off big-time. The rest of the time, there’ll just be no hill, no road, no use.

Really, just don’t do it.

(On the other hand, I like a gamble too).

[anteportas]

Maybe one should demonstrate the use of guns to you, Paulo, because clearly you do not understand how effective they can be. Try to attack as axis combined arms without using them. It is impossible, because you get limited armour points.

The infantry guns give alot of bangs for the bucks (or euros ) and it is a pity to not use them. And like Jason said, if you can make good use of guns, it is so easy to use tanks or self propelled guns.

Just try it.

[Aco4bn187inf]

I kind of like using guns on the offensive because:

A It makes you have to think a bit (potentially).

B It can be a surprise to the enemy when they get into position and open up.

My habit, if there are woods on the map, is to push them through the trees with a MTC command, then blast targets of opportunity. Otherwise, a good use is to have them cover an objective flag, so they can suppress, kill or throw smoke when the flag's defenders reveal themselves.

If you're feeling cocky, you could even use them to knock down buildings likely to have enemy in them.

If I can, I keep them under command by an HQ with a concealment bonus while they're moving up through cover- though this may not be really necessary.

See also a related topic on one of these furums titled 'PAKs in the streets'.

[nimo]

20mm and 37mm flak cannons are incredibly effective at taking out enemy gun emplacements. If I'm attacking as the Axis, I like to have two 20mm towed by kubelwagens that can be sent in quickly to take out enemy anti-tank assets. I once had a single regular 20mm take out three 75mm anti-tank guns from three different positions that they were deployed to as I advanced. Used in that way it's like a super-machine-gun of some sort, and has a really easy time keeping gun crews pinned.

[Macphail]

some really good comments here, but i would like to add something. i have had enough of my guns blown up while trying to push them into position, so my advice is this:

do not set up guns where the enemy can see. they will make that a priority target. you should have some idea where u want the gun, before you click go and start playing. look at the map before u begin, and try and determine where the best fields of fire will be, and where your gun can best cover the approaching, (or static) enemy. look for places that the enemy wont be able to see at first too. set up an ambush, if you can rush in some gun to cover a road you know he will come down...thats perfect. if they are waiting for you and see it coming, its already too late.

i find (obviously), that its best to find places for your guns before you start, and to not move them.

i played a battle some time ago where i had 4 towed light AT guns, and 4 towed medium AT guns. i moved them up like an infantry advance...first one group, then the other, covering each other. in the end i think i only lost one of the guns. they didnt get alot of kills in the fight, but they did prove very usefull for covering fire...they kept some of the german armor pinned down till i was ready to deal with it. very useful indeed.

[Guest Mike]

I'm playing the infantry only-tourney & have had some experience with guns lately.

In my latest game my opponent correctly guessed where most of my indirect arty assets would be & obliterated them with well placed direct and indirect artilery - leaving me only 4 25pdrs that would take ages to get anywhere to shoot.

But they did still get there, and have KO'ed all his direct fire assets (4 guns - prolly 75's I imagine) & are having a crack at his infantry - well worth the wait!

[Zalgiris 1410]

When towing guns on the offensive I think of it at first defensively, with the intent of providing protection from aircraft or probing enemy tanks or other forces. Have enough of AAGs and ATGS set up to cover the whole area in a liniar sense and avoid surprises.

Secondly bound them, moving some at a time with enough active at all times, especially as mentioned above into key position to cover counter attacks on the flanks of your main force direction.

Thirdly think in terms of combined arms, guns are effective at ranges and should follow up with overwatching the main force. This spares having to use AFVs to do so and allowing you to concentrate them and reinforce them. This can also be done using techniques described above repositioning them for the best effects.

[Denwad]

there's also a bug you can take advantage of, well maybe it's not a bug.

when you stop a gun it's setup time is say two minutes, at 1 minute 45 seconds you give it a move order.

It's remaining setup time will be 15 seconds.

you can use this on anything with a deploy time btw

[Sgt AA]

Thanks, great tip!

This can be very handy. Hard to think that this is not a bug, could there be any other rational explanation?

[Sergei]

It's a bug, that's all.

Abusing bugs, especially in multiplayer, is NOT respectable, though. Don't go to the dark side...

[SpitfireXI]

I am allright using guns on the offensive in the country, but how to use them in a city or town? I have seen countless photos of infantry doing just that. But in an urban environment there is no possibility to push it through trees or whatnot.

[IDILIX]

I believe Rommel used 50mm Paks in coordination with the tanks and that was a smashing success. I try the same in CMAK with French 75s and 50mm paks supported by 4 or 8 Panzer IIIs and lots of infantry. So far it helped.

As long the British are not armed with HE shells this works...

However, dont advise for CMBB.