flamingknives Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 There I was, playing a nice assault QB Vs. the AI (I know, candy from a baby and all that) when I came across an open stretch of ground between two woods. Having only one infantry manuever element (I had a platoon of pioneers and a platoon of Brumbars, that crazy computer pick) I wanted to achieve the next cover (about 100m away) without getting too chewed up by hidden MGs. As I also had an 81mm mortar spotter, I thought "Great, let's have some smoke" and proceded to target smoke on the gap. With the in coming smoke about 10 seconds away, I gave the infantry orders to move across the gap, with a 30-40 second delay to allow a good screen to develop. So, in came the smoke, then off went the intrepid Pioneers. Marvellous timing. End of turn. In the orders phase, the situation is thus: Halfway across an open field, I have a platoon of pioneers and flamethrowers. There is also a very large and dense smoke screen covering them. This is satisfactory, so I allow them to keep moving across the gap and press GO. The next turn starts, and with smoke rounds still coming in, the smoke screen decides to vanish like mist in a hurricane. The Pioneers are left standing in an open field with the nearest cover 50m away at least. Fortune favors them, however, and few enemy MGs can target them, meaning casualties are light. In addition, a quartet of 150mm guns under 100mm of sloped armour helped. By the end of the turn, the pioneers have skulked, run or cowered into cover, and there is a nice, dense, large smoke screen covering the gap they just crossed. So I ask you. Where does this smoke go? I want decent cover, not to think that it's there and for it to sod off just when it might be useful. For the record, this happened again later in the game, and I'm sure I've seen it happen before, it just didn't irk me quite as much then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 What sort of wind was there in the battle? The higher the wind the less the duration of smoke. Also shell diameter also affects smoke duration and size, so you will get bigger and longer lasting smoke plumes as your arty increases in size. Madmatt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Yeh, it was almost like the designers had a grudge against smoke after some bad experiences with CMBO. CMBB is definitely much less smoke-friendly. As for quickly departing smoke, what were the weather conditions? breezy and rainy days dissipate smoke pretty quickly, using smoke on a rainy day in high winds is pretty much pointless! One of the few things I'm nostalgic for from CMBO is the ever-present and long-duration smoke clouds. In CMBB, by comparison, I almost feel nekked without reliable smoke cover! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Do you play with 1.03 ? Wasn't there a bug about smoke shells in previous versions, where the smoke screen present at the end of a turn would vanish completely at the begining of the following minute ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Boggs Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Madmatt: What sort of wind was there in the battle? The higher the wind the less the duration of smoke. Also shell diameter also affects smoke duration and size, so you will get bigger and longer lasting smoke plumes as your arty increases in size. Madmatt Okay to recap: 1. If it's blown, the duration will be lessened. 2. Diameter affects both duration and size. 3. The larger the size, the longer the duration. Is this correct? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted June 16, 2003 Author Share Posted June 16, 2003 Righto: I didn't notice any great tree movement, but then I didn't check the conditions either (super-random QB) It was either raining or overcast. It was an 81mm mortar FO - probably with 6 tubes, going by the density of fire. Definately had 150 rounds. I also used a few rounds from 75mm direct fire. They seemed to last a fairly long time in comparison. The problem wasn't that the smoke wasn't lasting that long - I had enough ammunition, constantly falling to keep the level of smoke up. Basically, one turn of firing produced a large and dense screen, which continuous fire failed to maintain throughout the turn. Do you play with 1.03 ? Wasn't there a bug about smoke shells in previous versions, where the smoke screen present at the end of a turn would vanish completely at the begining of the following minute ? I was playing with 1.03, but the effect was almost exactly as you describe I shall go away and check. Results posted in about 12-14 hours (tomorrow for me) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Poppa Pump Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 It sounds like there were rounds in mid flight at the end of the 60 second turn. IIRC rounds cannot remain in midflight at the end of the turn. Any rounds in the air must be resolved before the turn ends. I believe smoke also will disapate (sp?) while this is going on. The more wind the more this is noticable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigurd Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I remember clearly discussions, where in a smoke barrage, in the beginnig of each turn, you had to wait for newly landed smoke shell to emit smoke. All the smoke emitted at the end of the turn would disappear at the beginning of the new one. The problem was, you hadn't a single-piece 3 minutes smoke screen, but 3 short screens during the last 40 seconds of the turn I wonder wether it was fixed in a patch, but I don't remember which. But I didn't find any references in the CMBO->CMBB changes list, or in one of the patches read me... Perhaps I saw these discussions when it was fixed in CMBO already ?... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted June 17, 2003 Author Share Posted June 17, 2003 Overcast Dusk Warm Strong Wind After a short bit of testing, the problem seems to be symptomatic of strong winds. The smoke pulses, with good cover at beginning and end of the turn, with a derth of smoke from 25-50 seconds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Originally posted by flamingknives: Overcast Dusk Warm Strong Wind After a short bit of testing, the problem seems to be symptomatic of strong winds. The smoke pulses, with good cover at beginning and end of the turn, with a derth of smoke from 25-50 seconds. Had a River crossing with strong wind. I didn't even bother to lay smoke after a test. 25-35 secs for 81mm smoke, then it was gone. Otherwise it was overcst or clear, no rain or fog. IIRC that effect is described in the manual. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Mr Boggs said: Okay to recap: 1. If it's blown, the duration will be lessened. 2. Diameter affects both duration and size. 3. The larger the size, the longer the duration. Is this correct? 1. Yes, if it's gets blown, duration is certainly shortened 2. Diameter is more important than size, not sure about effect on duration 3. Not sure. However, size does matter. Size and duration together, and you have got an almost guaranteed Total Victory, if not an Auto Surrender. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAT Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Flaming, I too had the problems that you are describing. However; in 1.03, this has gone away. What I find now, is that smoke rounds that hit but do not have enough time to form, will form on the next turn. This makes for a nice even and continuous pattern. Although!!!!!!!!!!!!! In a PBEM that I am playing now, I fired off some smoke rounds with my 82mm arty. No smoke save the spotting round formed. But, what happens when the next minute comes around and it's orders phase, the places where the smoke rounds hit that have not formed smoke yet, Block LOS. I noticed this cause I lost tons of LOS. At first, I thought it was CMs way of saying the weather had changed, but it got to be ridiculous as it was happening to too many of my LOSes. I went back and looked at the turn where the arty was falling and sure enough 5 places where rounds fell but did not have smoke forming had blocked LOS on this orders phase turn. One advantage it gives is now I know where the smoke is, err will be, and I can change targeting to places that aren't blocked so that any further targeting by live fire arty spotters won't be affected and fire live rounds out of LOS (the wide pattern). I've got a tank who was area targeting whose LOS is now blocked. The orange line is still there and I've left the tanks area fire ordering in tact. Since there is no smoke yet, and I have an orange targeting line, but now no LOS, what I want to find out is if the tank will fire or not. I would assume not, but you never know. Will let you know if it does or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beta1 Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 JAT - just a quick check - you havnt accidently turned the smoke off using the hotkeys? I did this in one game and spent 2 turns wondering why my smoke hadnt turned up... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted June 17, 2003 Author Share Posted June 17, 2003 Gahhhh! I know that wind etc. reduces duration. In the example given, I had an entire 81mm module that I had no other use for (4 Brumbars in a 600 pts assault obviates the need for any further HE) The problem is, with a constant rain of fresh smoke shells, the screen generated is not constant and instead follows predictable pulses whereupon the screen thins from 25 seconds until new plumes start forming at around 50-55 seconds. For the intervening period smoke cover drops to practically nothing, even with 9 tube soviet modules 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAT Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Originally posted by Beta1: JAT - just a quick check - you havnt accidently turned the smoke off using the hotkeys? No, as I said, only the spotting round smoke formed. 1.03 works great now with respect to smoke not forming until x seconds after they hit, regardless of what turn it is. It's just that now, the next orders phase will show blocked LOS to the rounds that have not formed smoke yet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I suppose that the pulsating smoke screen is a result of the salvo nature of artillery fire. If the interval between salvos is greater than the persistence of the smoke, then you will get spotty coverage. I guess that what really would happen is that after the initial screen, the artillery would move to a steadier maintenance rate of fire, but that certainly would not be modeled in CMxx. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted June 17, 2003 Author Share Posted June 17, 2003 I would smash my head against the screen, but it's an LCD and wouldn't stand up to such harsh treatment. The ROF of an 81mm mortar battery is what, a salvo every 4-5 seconds? More to the point, if I can establish a screen of a certain density, why doesn't continuous fire of the same rate maintain this screen? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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