Destroying Tanks with Infantry

[NameUsedBefore]

Is it at all possible? Countless times I've had tank-hunters hidden in the attics (or whatever) of buildings, sitting in wait of an oncoming tank... when that tank comes they either: don't follow my orders (understandable to a degree) --- attack it but with their... rifles? Or simply get blown to bits when they reveal themselves but fail to do much of anything.

Ultimately, though, they are almost always spotted before a tank can even close the distance in the first place. This is pretty much the case for most infantry vs. tanks.

From experience the AT-guns are of little help. Most shots ricocheting and those that penetrate appear to not slow down the tank one bit. The best that they can do is immobilize a tank, but that is a bid for luck.

I have little experience with flame-throwers. They are hard to maneuver and often you DON'T want to maneuver them during anysort of engagement because they're slow and easily shot-up. I've seen it used against infantry, which utterly demoralized them, but not against tanks...

The best I've seen is simply the hand-held panzer-fausts/schrecks. Besides that, nothing from the infantry really stops tanks. The Russians seem to not utilize their molotovs like they should, and neither side seems to use their demolition-charges when they should.

Should I just send my infantry RIGHT up to the side of the tank...? I'm a little stumped on this one.

*Another question: when a sniper takes a shot at an infantry squad, who is he aiming for? And is it possible for him to kill a tanker that has his hatch up?

[stoat]

It is possible. Wait for the tank to get very close. If they are just shooting at the tank with their rifles(? probably SMGs) then the tank is more than likely out of their throwing or launching range.

When a sniper hits an infantry squad, most of the time a rifleman goes down. I don't know if that's how it is supposed to work, that's just been my experience.

Targeting unbuttoned tank crews is quite possible. That just might be the best use for sharpshooters.

[SgtMuhammed]

I use Tank hunter teams all the time. You have to get the tank alone as far as LOS goes. Sometimes the AT teams will get a kill with the first shot but more often than not it will miss and be identified and fired on by everyone. You either need to distract the other firers or catch the target alone.

[NameUsedBefore]

How close do infantry need to be to start throwing their demos'/molotovs? Should I put them in "Hide" mode and set a 'Cover Armor'-arc around a certain area...?

Another question: do mortar-barrages (let's say... 82mm's) hurt tanks, or possibly even destroy them? One time I baited a group of tanks into a street I had designated for bombard-ment and they were certainly being rained-upon, but due to the 'Extreme' fog of war settings I am unsure if this had any effect.

[John Kettler]

NameUsedBefore,

You may want to set a Cover Armor arc for your tankhunters. Make sure it's within effective range (roughly 50% of listed range) of their tank killing weapons. This should minimize the likelihood of their popping up and firing while out of effective range.

Another thing you can do if you have the right kind of HQ available is to support your tankhunters with an HQ possessing Stealth (?) and Combat (lightning bolt) bonuses. This will allow them to hide better and fight better. Isolate the tank (waylay out of LOS of its friends or smoke it to create such a block), button the tank (preferably by shooting the TC (recommend sharpshooter!), Shocking the crew), distract the tank by presenting multiple threats on several axes--then attack. Depending on the target, 81-82mm mortars can kill but are more likely to force buttoning. If you're lucky, you may hit a TC. Open topped vehicles, though, are meat on the table. Even a 5cm mortar can kill them. As for AT guns, unless they're really powerful, you want flank shots from keyholed firing positions, preferably while distracting the tank's attention after buttoning it. For serious killing, your open fire range should be only a few hundred meters. The ATG will have higher hit probability than the buttoned tank (which doesn't spot well) and a greater rate of fire, too. Good hunting!

Regards,

John Kettler

[ December 10, 2005, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Vixen]

Be sure to use the vs Armor covered arc too. Some tank hunter teams are far mor effective than others as well. Those with say, molotov cocktails are far less effecient than a team with a anti-armor grenade bundle or panzerfaust.

[NameUsedBefore]

Can an ordinary infantry squad take on a tank by assaulting it? I mean utterly landing on top of it.

About the molotovs, I kind of figured they might do pretty good against tanks, but this is not the case...? What about demo charges? I find that the Russians are usually in good supply of those, but rarely have the magnetic mines or RPG-esque weaponary (bundles of grenades, as you said).

When positioning a tank hunter team should I always have them in a building; and when in a buliding should it be the top floor (if available) and should I put them away from the windows or near them (does it matter, in essence)?

Also about snipers, I find that they rarely actually kill anything. They're good for recon and surveillance but besides that they don't do a whole lot of damage. So what do they do, combat wise, that would effect the enemy?

[stoat]

Yes, infantry squads and HQ units can close assault tanks. They will use panzerfausts, rifle grenades, grenade bundles, or just regular grenades to attack the tank.

Molotovs are mostly ineffective. Pour whiskey on the front of your car and light it. You might burn some paint, but it will still drive. Same concept.

They don't have to be in a building, but they should always be in cover, if you want them to live for more than a few seconds. Windows aren't an issue, and it's probably personal preference as to top or bottom floor.

Use sharpshooters to kill tank commanders. It will momentarily shock the crew, and will then affect the spotting ability of the vehicle by keeping them buttoned for the rest of the battle.

[JasonC]

NUB - short answer, 180 degree 29 meter covered arc.

Long answer - the molotovs indeed suck. They have only 2 decent points - they can be tossed 35m, and they are thrown pretty readily and rapidly for an infantry AT weapon. But they take it all back by having practically zero behind armor effect. Against an open topped vehicle they will occasionally work, especially if a lot of them are thrown. Against a buttoned, fully topped vehicle, the only reason to throw them is to get them out of the way, so the squad will actually use close assault (more on that below).

Demo charges work great, just not a lot of range. 29m covered arc. They will throw, but they need about anywhere from 15 to 30 seconds uninterrupted time with the tank targeted and the men unsuppressed. If it hits, immobilization happens sometimes and full kills sometimes, but you are basically sure to get a real result against even the heaviest tank.

Russian RPGs are also quite effective, just rare. Tank hunters start getting them in 1943, mixed unfortunately with too many "just molotovs" ones, which are useless. By 1944 they are common enough I will buy tank hunters to get them.

Before then, the Russian anti-tank infantry of choice are the pioneers, preferably the company of company HQ and 2 platoons, each 3 squads. Those are affordable and give 3 little groups of 2 squads each, who can each block off about 100m with DC threat, the middle portion of it pretty effectively.

Any squad or HQ can close assault a tank without a special weapon. That looks like throwing grenades, and the range is 34m (I prefer sticking with 29m covered arcs though). They need a full 30 second typically to prep the attempt, and can fail to deliver it. High morale helps, both to deliver it and to hit. They won't even try it if they are pinned. Crews and weapons teams can't and won't try.

You do not need to run right on top of the tank and are better off not doing so. Stay stationary in cover with the tank in your arc. If the range is too far and you need to close the distance first, only try it if you will get close enough while still being in cover. Infantry AT attempts delivered from open ground virtually always fail.

The best move to get to the throw point is "sneak", if you have the time and if the tank is already buttoned. Next best is "assault", with "advance" bringing up the rear. Occasionally a "dash" of "run" e.g. to reach a house with a tank on the far side through dead ground, but that is a terrain-specific special case.

The effect after a throw is either nothing, or you will get a "Hit" designation in red letters above the tank. These can frequently fail to do anything, but often immobilize and can and do kill. Full kills happen either because one thrower does well, or you've got so many nearby ("swarming" it is called) that you rack up 3-4 hits is short succession. They will rarely survive that. Open top are more vulnerable.

The Germans get much more effective infantry AT. Every squad in all eras typically gets an explosive charge in the form of a grenade bundle. 29m covered arc to throw. To use against infantry, area fire under 30m will bring up a "use explosives?" option, but you don't need to do that for AT work, which has to be aimed not area, anyway. Not quite Demo charge effectiveness but distinctly better than close assault and much more likely to be delivered rapidly.

They also occasionally get rifle grenades early on. Those have good range - 50m is fine - but poor accuracy. They will be fired rapidly however and a squad sometimes has up to 4. Don't count on each one hitting, more like one of them might. The effect varies with the armor hit, but basically you need a side or rear shot and at a flat angle, against anything but light armor. If it penetrates the effect can still leave something to be desired, but I have killed full tanks with the things sometimes.

The fausts are another story and a much better one. Even the 30m version can be fired at about 35m. 40m is OK for the 60m version, which does not come out until the bottom half of 1944, and the 1945 100m version can hit regularly at 50m. These have good behind armor effect, and if unsuppressed they are quite willing to use them. They can also fire off several in rapid succession if they get a shot - like 12 seconds apart. That helps because the one downside is accuracy. They are marginally better than the rifle grenades but a shot is not a hit.

Magnetic mines have the best full kill chance of any AT weapon, and are extremely effective. But they need - 29m covered arc range, unsuppressed attempter. (Getting familiar yet?)

Panzerwurfmines are also quite effective, with good 35-40m throwing range, about as likely to throw as a molotov (high) and good behind armor effect.

Americans in CMAK get rifle grenades and the engineers get demo charges. Occasionally others get ad hoc DCs, too. The plain 30mm side panzers (without skirts) are especially vulnerable to the rifle grenades, as the penetration is good enough side angle won't matter (compared to e.g. a German one trying to "stick" on a T-34).

As for flamethrowers, they will kill a tank with one shot quite frequently. Covered arc set to the limit of their range e.g. 32m for a German FT.

Panzerschrecks are a step up, a portable anti tank gun. They can hit at range and will kill pretty much anything they hit. The accuracy is the sticking point, and the solution is to wait for good ranges. While shots are possible at 200m, hits aren't. Hold them down to 70m or so for their first shot. Once in the fight and likely to be spotted, you can risk shots at 100-150m, not expecting each round to hit but one of the five often will.

Zooks and PIATs are distinctly worse than schrecks, in armor penetration. They generally need side or rear shots and pretty flat side angle ones at that, with deflections common otherwise. Accuracy and range are similar to the schreck story, though a bit more ammo and a cheaper unit can sometimes justify opening at 100m. Also, you can't pick the range when you are more worried about the flank being exposed - you end up taking the shot you can get.

The schrecks, zooks and PIATs can actively "stalk" tanks. Use cover, stay in dead ground, sneak to the edge of LOS. One key thing with them is that obstructions seriously degrade accuracy. They are much more likely to hit from behind a wall (clear shot) than from 11m back in tall pines. If you must shoot from woods, sneak to or set up right on the edge. Shots from buildings are not accuracy degraded but will suppress the firer from backblast, pinning him. This often makes for only one shot and is not optimal. Shots from rubble are a better idea in a city fight.

As for sharpshooters, one of their roles is to button up tanks, and they will sometimes kill a tank commander in the process, producing a "shock" result. They are also very effective at breaking heavy weapons teams especially if they catch one moving in the open. FOs are a high value target for them. HQs, if you can tell which infantry? marker is one.

Generally it is best to let him just pick his own shots, rather than trying to give him orders. He is much more likely to hit and much less likely to be seen. They don't have enough ammo to blaze away, anyway - not their job. They have excellent range, and do not need to be close. In fact, farther is better for avoiding detection, think 300 to 500m. Inside 100m they will refuse to fire, to avoid giving away their location.

What one or two will give you is key enemy weapons pinned at various points in the battle. If you see him shoot at something and see that something go heads-down, know he scared the beejeesus out of them. Follow up with light fire from an MG or single squad, to prevent rally, and that unit is as good as eliminated. Don't think of him as some sneaky pete close quarters guy, think of him as another kind of heavy weapon, like an HMG or a mortar, who "takes out" enemy teams by pinning them at long range, undetected.

I hope this helps.

[juan_gigante]

Regarding artillery against armor, I seem to remember from earlier threads and tests that if you get a direct hit, a 105 can kill most tanks, but to get much effect, you'll need 150s or better. The thing arty can do against tanks well is mobility kills, TC kills, and gun damage.

Tankettes, however, are much easier to kill. Once, I killed a T-70 with a lucky top hit with an 81mm mortar.

[David Chapuis]

Get a cheap pioneer battalion when you are russians. They are your best bet.

[Bigduke6]

NUB,

150mm artillery is fairly effective against armored vehicles, and the smaller the vehicle, the more effective it seems to be (for me, anyway). Thus it is better against PanzerIIIs and T-70s, than Tigers and Stalins. A mobility kill and continued bombardment frequently will make the crew bail. It's not as efficient as an AT gun, but OTOH you don't offer the enemy any targets to shoot at. A side benefit is that even medium never mind heavy artillery will convince most players to get the tanks out of the impact area, to avoid the chance of an artillery hit of some sort.

Sometimes this can work against the tank, as if it ducks into scattered woods to hid, the tree bursts make it a little easier to hurt the tank.

On infantry the keys are start your attack at close range, and make sure the infantry is as happy as possible when they attack. The best situation is, obviously, the enemy can't see you infantry, and what's more hasn't seen it recently. So close range ambushes are the ticket. Infantry morale must be good, if they are even a little tired or pinned or taking cover their ability to attack tanks really goes to heck.

Therefore, sending your infantry out into the open to attack a tank is a much iffier propositon. Infantry is sensitive and worried about all those bullets and so on flying around, and will take cover even if something not shot directly at it comes near, or frequently if something that could shoot at it is pointing its way, and isn't yet shooting.

Common sense, really, but it is worth bearing in mind that when you are thinking of having that squad charge that tank, that the squad may only going to have a few seconds to think about actually attacking the tank, before the enemy spots the infantry and makes it go to ground. A squad pinned in the open 30 meters from a tank isn't going to do you much good.

What you want is a situation where a squad can aim at a tank unmolested for a minute. Two is better. And Russian infantry is screwed royally in the game in that it must expend its Molotovs which are fairly useless, before being allowed to throw "grenades", which is really the close attack.

If you must use Molotovs the only recipe is mass. A platoon sitting still and unmolested for a turn or two has a fighting chance of throwing enough Molotovs to hurt a tank. Usually in a battle it's not possible to rig things that much in your favor.

As with anything else in CM, more attacks simultaneously are better.

In general the textbook way to deal with a tank is to strip away its covering infantry, which function as its eyes, and then whack the tank with several AT attacks at once. Ideally you hit it with a mix of infantry, AT guns, artillery all at the same time. If you send infantry on its own to do the job, sometimes they will manage it, but often they will take serious casualties in the process.

Bear in mind tanks are big stupid dinosaurs, very dangerous but usually too dumb to deal with attacks from more than one direction. Treat them with respect but take advantage of their small brains. Enjoy the bonfires. And remember, most CM players hate losing tanks to infantry.

Good hunting.

[John Kettler]

Those same scattered trees, in any but the driest conditions, may generate a Bogged result, too. With luck, you may see that turn into the even more desirable Immobilized, especially when under fire.

That can lead to Abandonment. Tirades and gnashing of teeth by your opponent are likely sequelae.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ December 11, 2005, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Aco4bn187inf]

Also, beware the German vehicles with 'nahverteidigungswaffe' (sp?) in the later part of the war. It's sort of a grenade launcher which will effectively mess with any close-assaulting infantry.

Don't send your squad to ambush a tank where several other tanks may appear close by. Not only is it 'physically' dangerous, but the squad may simply just surrender when it sees so much enemy armor so close to it.

As you may know, medium and especially heavy MG teams can panic or destroy light armor.

The LMG's carried by German squads can kill halftracks at close range.

Vehicles like the sdkfz7 series flakwagons are great targets for sharpshooters and even just riflemen.

SMG squads are likely to get a kill on an unbuttoned vehicle commander if they ambush from close range. The wound would probably look like a sharkbite...

If you are facing Marders, check to see if it's the type with thin front armor. Those are vulnerable to HMG's even from the front. Nice way to kill a good enemy asset. I had a jeep kill a Marder once in CMAK; I only dared to do it 'cause it was misidentified as a sdkfz250/10.

Often all your infantry can do is to influence the enemy armor's behavior, by keeping his tanks away from cover, or getting them to turn away from your approaching armor, etc., rather than actually killing them.

NUB, I'd be interested to see you post a description of your first infantry-vs-tank kill here. Bonne chance!

[The_Enigma]

just to throw in my own exp

ive just stopped several soviet tanks in a recent pbem with infantry and there at weapons.

you gotter keep your guys hidden until basically the last possible momment.

either let the tanks pass through you position (gotter give the impression that there no one there) before deciding to engage or letting them get very close.

within say 50ms, i just get my guys to stop hiding and they do the work for me.

At mines, satchal charges, grenades, paznerfausts etc

the above poster is very correct about that grenader launcher ... they can mess up any close assualt ... i dont think ive managed to close in on a tank with them.

any ideas guys?

[NameUsedBefore]

How does one take pictures in this game? And I heard about F-AA options but I never see any graphics tab...

I've actually killed tanks before with infantry, but that was because I was the Germans and their panzerfausts/schrecks are just so vastly superior to the other nations' armaments. My main problem is doing it with the Russians because they seem to lack any efficient way to destroy tanks.

[stoat]

Hit "print screen", then go into MS paint and paste the picture.

[JasonC]

NUB - we've all noticed that at one time or another. It is largely a reflection of the weakness of Molotovs. The solution is the pioneer infantry type and their demo charges.

Take a company of those for under 200 points. You get 6 9 man squads each with 2 DCs, and 3 HQs, one a company. Put 2 squads with each HQ, with the company HQ section in the middle, so you can "swing" squads whichever way you need.

Put the squads 40-50m apart, in cover of course, and give them 29m 180 degree covered arcs. Put the HQ a bit behind them and centered, as terrain permits. The squads can hide, the HQ can use a short arc but stay unhidden to spot things. Each such mini-group covers about 100m with threat of thrown DC. The area between the two squads is most heavily threatened, obviously. You can make 3 of those little DC traps with the group.

The infantry firepower isn't great, but 2 of them shoot at least as hard as one typical (larger, better armed) squad, while taking fire better. And the ammo load and range are both high, once they reveal themselves. The DCs are good at anti-infantry ambush too, using the "area fire - use explosives" command as you come off "hide".

On the attack, a single one of those groups along with a regular platoon to company provides mine clearing ability, in addition to strongpoint DC attacks where cover permits. And they can act as an AT blocker in tight terrain, closing a street or woods road or a few gaps in slightly more open woods. The rest pull back past them if tanks attack.

[NameUsedBefore]

Another question, can an engineer squad demo' buildings?

[ParaBellum]

Yes they can. As Jason already pointed out earlier, if you use the area fire command within 30m (IIRC), you get the option to 'use explosives'.

[David I]

It takes a little finess, but it is extremely gratifying when successful.

DavidI

[SgtMuhammed]

Except when you send your pioneers into a building to close assault an enemy squad and they use their demo charges and bring down the house on their own heads. I wish you could tell them not to use things that will get them killed.

[John Kettler]

sgtgoody(esq),

It happens in real life, too. Believe it's in Michael Doubler's CLOSING WITH THE ENEMY where he describes what happens when an overenthusiastic combat engineer used way too much explosive--in a wooden house--for a mousehole charge. No house!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vixen]

Originally posted by NameUsedBefore:

Another question, can an engineer squad demo' buildings?

Can blow bridges too which is pretty fun.

[John_d]

Just back to the original post, AT guns are alot more use than you seem to be giving them credit for. The key is to keyhole them so that they only have a narrow LOS (e.g. down a street etc) then keep them hidden until you are alost certain that you will get a kill. AT guns will generally make a mess of just about anything provided they hit them in the right place at the right range. Its takes a little patience to know when to open up. I have sometimes been forced to never use an AT gun just b/c I've never got the opportunity to get a good shot at anything. Bear in mind that AT guns are easy to keep concealed and will generally not give their positions away even after they have fired (especially the German flak guns) but they are really easy to kill once you know where they are.

In terms of positioning, I always try to place my AT guns in a place where they should be able to get clear shots at the flanks or rear of the attacking tanks. Again, patience is the key here as in order to get these shots you will probaly have to spend 5 or 10 minutes watching enemy tanks roll past. Also, if you are worried about rounds bouncing off stuff, but lots and lots of AT guns. One of the scenarios provided with the demo was like this. If you can make sure that the enemy tanks will be pelted with fire constantly, the chances are that you will hit the gun, the tracks or the tank commander or even a combination of the above. They will usually abandon after a turn or two, even if there is no armour penetration.