Uberpanzers

[Billy Prior]

Hi All,

This is my first post on this forum. I've been playing about six months against the AI and have worked through Jason C's Russian training secenarios as well as trying scenarios in the copy of CMBB I bought here in New Zealand. I've read and tried to follow advice here and in the CMBB Guide.

I always play Soviets and have gradually improved to the point where I am reasonably confident defending and becoming more confident on the offensive. One aspect of attacking is proving frustrating and that is coming up against Tigers and Royal Tigers (and, to a lesser extent, Panthers) in scenarios where the weather is good and and the terrain relatively open and the map big.

I find it very difficult to make progress with armour in such situations and if , as is ususally the case, the Germans have infantry as well, it's difficult to move forward with infantry within the (usually tight) turn limits.

A specific example is an Operation titled 'Mobile Defence'. The first couple of battlles were fine- Nashorns and Pz IVs I can handle. By battle 4 I'm up against a couple of Royal Tigers (this is suppose to be Bagration- were any of these monsters around then?) and it's hopeless. I've tried everything I can think of, narrow front, broad front, shoot and scoot, narrow covered arcs, a mass charge, fast outflanking moves- it all ends in a lot of scrap metal...

Should I be despondent? I know some scenarios are virtually impossible to win depending on which side you play but...

And I hardly ever meet Pz IV or StuG III's in 1944 - 45 era battles I play - it's much more likely I'll encounter the Big Cats. Should that happen (historically)?

All help much appreciated.

Billy

[Mad Russian]

No, there were no King Tigers available to the Germans during Operation Bagration.

What about the great equalizer...smoke? Do you have mortars or smoke rounds available to you? Can you get the Tigers in a cross fire where they will have to face one way and become vulnerable from a different direction?

[Andreas]

I am currently playing that operation as well, as the Germans. The only thing you can hope for is hail fire - I lost one of my King Tigers to a successive gun hit and immobilisation in the first turn. The other one has so far shrugged off about seven rockets from an IL-2 that went off very close by.

Maybe you get better stuff later, but at the moment in our PBEM the battlefield is the graveyard of a Soviet armoured regiment, with little to show for it for him.

PC - the map is too narrow to allow flanking, and with other stuff on the German side (Panzer IV, Nashorn, Pak 40, Panther) it is possible to shut those avenues completely.

All the best

Andreas

[Bigduke6]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

No, there were no King Tigers available to the Germans during Operation Bagration.

What about the great equalizer...smoke? Do you have mortars or smoke rounds available to you? Can you get the Tigers in a cross fire where they will have to face one way and become vulnerable from a different direction?

Yes, there were Royal Tigers committed to battle during Bagratian, at the tail end. It took place at the Battle of Sandomirz, 13 August 1944, during combats on the Visla. 6th Guards Tank Corps (3rd Guards Tank Army, 1st Ukrainian Front) was set up defensively and so found itself in the path of a local attack built on 501st Heavy Tank Abteiling, which was equipped with Royal Tigers. Elements of 16th Panzer Division also were in the area.

The 501st reportedly arrived in the area at full strength, i.e. 20 Tigers and 20 MarkIVs, but suffered mechanical casualties moving the Tigers from the railhead to an assembly area, and more moving the vehicles from the assembly area to the assault zone. 11 Tigers actually participated in the attack, according to Soviet records.

The Germans made the attack because the Soviets had grabbed a bridgehead over the Visla, and the Germans wanted to eliminate it. The Tigers were committed, in part, because the Soviets shot up a panzer attack in the same location on 11 August, destroying (according to Soviet records) eight Panthers in the process.

The Soviet manuever formations in the area were them 52nd and 53rd Guards Tank Brigade (T-34/85 and T-34/76 mix), and 51st Guards Heavy Tank Brigade (Stalin II). Combat-capable vehicles at the general vicinity included 28 x T-34/76, 13 x T-35/85, 11 x ISU-II, and 1 x SU-85. Some of the T-34s were dug in.

The terrain was sandy with more than a few dunes. Both sides' tanks had trouble moving in the sandy areas, the Tigers a good deal more. The Soviet tanks were in defilade or, in some cases, concealed in haystacks. The morning weather was foggy. Both sides had artillery in the area, and once the shells started coming down, visibility was reduced further by sand kicked up by the explosions.

The Soviets report the Germans tried to scout ahead with recon vehicles, but the recon vehicles failed to uncover the Soviet tanks hiding in ambush. Because of the fog the Soviets heard the Tigers a good deal before they saw them.

The Tigers basically drove into the Soviet defense area and were picked off mostly with flank shots, and in a few cases apparently by hail fire; a single Tiger being pounded by a company of Soviet tanks, plus artillery called in on the Tiger as well.

Combat reports claimed a total 13 Tigers and an undetermined number of other German tanks destroyed in the action. If you look at the accounts there are specific claims of 11 Tigers destroyed by direct fire, one Tiger just abandoned by its crew (it was found empty of ammo), and one Tiger that bogged and got stuck. The bogged Tiger (number 234) was the one the Soviets wound up conducting ballistics test on at the Kubinka range outside Moscow. The Soviets say they total took possession of twelve Tigers in various states of repair. Three reportedly were captured in working order.

The records are incomplete for the Soviet side, but it seems like the Soviets lost about 1/3 of their tanks, of which a small proportion burned and were lost for good, while the remainder were eventually repaired.

Engagement ranges were 400 to 800 meters, and usually the closer. It seems possible in a few cases Tigers were destroyed by frontal hits by 122mm shells. In one case a Stalin engaged and destroyed a Tiger at 1000 meters. The Tiger burned.

As you can see, CM Royal Tigers a bit tougher than the real thing.

[Bigduke6]

There are a couple of scenarios depicting the action, by the way.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panther Commander:

No, there were no King Tigers available to the Germans during Operation Bagration.

Yes, there were Royal Tigers committed to battle during Bagratian, at the tail end. It took place at the Battle of Sandomirz, 13 August 1944, during combats on the Visla. 6th Guards Tank Corps (3rd Guards Tank Army, 1st Ukrainian Front) was set up defensively and so found itself in the path of a local attack built on 501st Heavy Tank Abteiling, which was equipped with Royal Tigers. Elements of 16th Panzer Division also were in the area. </font>

[John Kettler]

Here's the skinny on the captured King Tigers at Sandomiercz.

http://members.tripod.com/George_Parada/tigertam.htm

John Kettler

[ March 28, 2006, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Andreas]

What has August 44 in Poland got to do with Hungary Spring 45? :confused:

All the best

Andreas

[John Kettler]

Andreas,

Thanks for catching that. Removed it.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bigduke6]

My dear Andreas,

Maybe the Visla bridgehead battles weren't part of Bagratian by the narrow definitions of certain central European nations that invade their neighbours at the drop of a bratwurst - but from the Soviet POV the summer 1944 offensive was all one operation, Baltic to Bessarabia. The schwerpunkt was in general White Russia, and the southern sector of that schwerpunkt was the responsibilty of our good friend Konev.

Glatz, Erickson, Red Army staff studies, real live veterans I've chatted with, pretty much everything I've ever read in books with pretty tank pictures, what my cleaning lady told me, what the cleaning lady's grandfather told her usw. et ad naseum.

Out of respect, I will spare you the traditional string of laudatory if obscure adjectives preceding the word "operation". There would have been a lot.

But you are quite right, the Vistula River and August are a bit different on the time/geography line than White Russia and July.

I will even resist the obvious dig that it was the Soviets' ability to incorporate all that time and space into massive, operationally-coordinated offensives, that was one of the Red Army's very strongest suits.

Some armies which shall remain nameless but nonetheless definately preferred saurkraut if they could get it were excellent tactically, but ask them to keep their eye on the ball for more than a month in theater-wide operations - ferget it.

You have no need to thank me for being so charitable, I hear that you have become French and as far as I am concerned French deserve it.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

Glatz, Erickson, Red Army staff studies, real live veterans I've chatted with, pretty much everything I've ever read in books with pretty tank pictures, what my cleaning lady told me, what the cleaning lady's grandfather told her usw. et ad naseum.

Dear Stephan

Then why are there two separate STAVKA studies on the operations?

I also heard it was all one war, so since there were King Tigers near Berlin, can we count them too?

When you are not busy spreading Communist disinformation propaganda, trying to lull the working class into being butchered for Stalin, please feel free to let me know what you think of the latest revision of ITBEv4.

Yours in revolutionary spirit

Andreyevskij

[Bigduke6]

Removed

[ March 28, 2006, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: Bigduke6 ]

[Andreas]

Stefan

Seriously - you are trying to tell me that 'Bagration' was the term for the whole of the summer campaign of 1944, i.e. Byelorussia/Poland, Western Ukraine/Poland, and Romania?

First time I hear that, but I may well have missed something rather obvious in the past.

All the best

Andreas

[Sergei]

Glantz & House definately say in Titans that OpBagration meant the Belorussian offensive and "was only the centerpiece of five different planned offensives in the summer of 1944."

[JasonC]

The scenario suffers from ridiculously inflated unit qualities and uber-armor-ism.

Spoiler alert, pro forma. Not like anyone needs to play this one without knowing the stuff below, unless they are a masochist I suppose.

The two KTs show up in battle 3. There is a particular large hill on the Russian right, after the second village, which is the best spot for them. You want to try to take that hill by the end of the 2nd battle if at all possible, to deny it to the KTs.

Placed on it and facing to their own right front, their left flank armor is protected by the Bottomless Pit off to the north. Their right flank armor can be slanted inward 45 degrees, so even a high angle side shot requires drawing even with them on the east-west axis, which means advancing a full kilometer through their LOS. And you'd have to go even farther to get a flat side shot.

The Russians get no heavy artillery - one 120mm mortar spotter is all. Those won't KO a KT even with a direct top hit. Almost exact hit near misses have a modest chance of inflicting immobilization, but really not enough to write home about. That basically removes that particular assymmetric counter. If you catch them unbuttoned when the barrage lands, you have a decent chance of capping one of the TCs, that is about all you can expect. Making it sometimes preferable to use the 120s for smoke, instead (see below).

The other main weapon you have, which shows up in battle 3, is a Yak-9T tank buster aircraft, which gets rockets and up to 4 passes with 37mm cannon, which will fire twice per pass. Unfortunately, those almost always just bounce from a KT - and they might be distracted by other armor present anyway. They can, however, inflict immobilization if they hit a track. With 8 shots, the chances of immobilizing one of them with the Yak are decent. Not assured, but decent.

You still have to kill the buggers, particularly if they are already in perfect blocking positions.

You get 2 IS-2s (crack) in battle 3. Their 122mm are not seriously dangerous to a KT from the front. A front turret hit stands some chance of partial penetration inside about 300 yards, due to the 90% armor quality (the LOS tool does not detect that, incidentally). The KT's own shots will kill the IS-2 on turret or lower hull hits, while glacis hits will generally bounce. But if they are on that hill, getting your IS-2s to 300m is very hard, and you aren't favored in the resulting fight anyway.

You have 2 KV-85s and 4 T-34/85s by that time, along with the IS-2s. These have no chance whatever against the front armor. But they can kill them with flat side hits out to medium ranges, and with some-side-angle side hits to 500-750 ranges. If you don't beat them in battle 3 (and also don't get your whole armor force killed), the odds rise considerably in battle 4, when you get 4 more IS-2s and 8 more T-34/85s, making a total to date of 6 122 and 14 85mm armed tanks. If you haven't lost too many, you can definitely take them out in battle 4. It isn't easy, though.

The recipe is as follows. You need to get platoons of tanks at two different locations separated by 90 degrees of arc from the Tiger's location. That generally means one platoon - the base of fire - on the hill near the north map edge, top-hatting over its crest in shoot and scoot fashion or rounding its north shoulder. Meanwhile, the second group - 2 platoons need to be sent, minimum, because some will be lost - has to push behind the low ridge past the second village toward the south edge of the map, about level with the KTs on the east-west axis.

To make that move, smoke the KTs with the 120mm mortars, while fast-moving to the dead ground behind the low ridge with a whole boatload of T-34/85s at once.

Now, the KTs can still face 45 degrees to the southeast, thus presenting side *hull* armor to *neither* group. But they can't shoot you facing their *turrets* that way, because it isn't where your tanks are. They have to train their turrets either east, or south, to fire at either group.

Whichever group one of the KTs is not facing, sees turret side armor at about 500m (for the south group) to 800-1000m (for the eastern group, which can have the IS-2s incidentally). Shoot and scoot into LOS, fire your one round at the turret side of the KT that is vulnerable to you (because they may face one each way, of course), reverse back out of LOS.

While they still have both KTs, they *will* kill tanks in the course of this. Your IS-2s may live a little longer with their glacis plate protection, but when top hatting most hits are turret so don't count too much on that. The T-34/85s have higher ROF and you can afford to risk them longer in the open, particularly if a KT isn't facing its turret to them that instant - they might get off 2-3 shots on a given occasion that way.

Many rounds will miss, others will hit the hull and bounce, some will encounter too much side angle even to the turret, as it turns. But the basic situation remains - the turrets cannot face both directions at once, and you have up to 20 guns that can punch through when they are facing the incorrect direction. One of you will get a partial or full pen. Behind armor effect may require 2-3 of them actually, but a KT will die.

Once there is only one of the beasties firing back, play "tag". Whichever way its turret is trained, do *not* shoot and scoot from that side. Go into full defilade and stay there. The other group fast moves to the open and fires. The KT will slowly and laboriously track its turret over to the exposed group,and like as not align and kill one of them. Next turn, reverse all those and pop out the other group. Each group will get an initial shot at the turret side every other turn. Again, eventually one will go in.

If you take the big hill in battle 2 it is somewhat easier. A similar position along the north edge is still available to the KTs, but on a lower hill farther back. You have a much better eastern position in the form of the high hill you took. There is a crescent shaped low ridge south of their edge hill, again. Lower and more exposed, less protected - but their own available position is also lower and doesn't see nearly as much at long distances. Smoke to pass key barriers again, to set up the same game.

If the KTs are positioned low with limited LOS instead, the wide angle game won't work as well. They can keyhole and only show front turret. But they cannot cover the whole map that way. If they do that, you need to work T-34/85s forward in the dead ground areas created by their keyholes, using low ground areas especially. Then run around the shoulders of their keyholes after closing the range all the way.

In that version, you need to keep infantry etc up with the attack, because there will be other German assets trying to block the routes to the flanks of the KTs. But all those other assets are killable. Overpower then with all arms while staying out of the narrow arcs of the KTs.

It is a rather silly scenario, because the difficulty of the task stems almost entirely from the narrow map, which allows a single position to have a fully protected flank (by the Bottomless Pit TM, not tactics) while also having LOS clear to the other side of the board.

Note - never use hunt in these fights. Your tanks will "cower", reversing and not firing, as each individually judges its own chances to be unfavorable. Fast move to the firing location, fire from a halt, continue or reverse. No hunt or stationary when they enter LOS, or your tankers will run away without firing back enough.

Your T-34/76s, by the way, can be used as distractors, but otherwise just keep them alive. They won't hurt the KTs under any circumstances, but are quite valuable as HE chuckers against the German infantry. Don't expend them recklessly, therefore.

I hope this helps.

[ March 28, 2006, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Bigduke6]

Andreas,

Thanks for catching that. Removed it.

Regards,

Stefan

[Bigduke6]

Removed

I will say in my defense Soviet studies routinely consider Bagratian and Lvov-Sandomirz as part of the same general offensive, that was so effective it collapes Army Group Center and forced the Wehrmacht to all sorts of panic measures, including the commitment of Royal Tigers..

But...that greater offensive wasn't called Bagratian, that was just the White Russia offensive. Therefore, my citing battles in the Sandomirz bridgehead as proof of Royal Tiger employment during Bagratian was, strictly speaking at least, wrong.

[John Kettler]

Bigduke6 and Andreas,

Am glad you two have now apparently decided what was, and what was not, Bagration, who, BTW, I now actually also know of as a person, thanks to some Napoleonic documentaries on the History Channel.

Billy Prior,

Your brain has now doubtless dissolved as a result of processing JasonC's exegesis and deep tactical commentary, but welcome aboard anyway! Was remiss in not doing this earlier.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Billy Prior]

Thanks Jason C for that advice. I'm grateful for the time and trouble you've gone to and will have a go at those KTs again. Thanks also John Kettler for the warm welcome

I learned far more about Bagration than I ever expected to from everyone else! So thanks to other posters

Okay, can anyone recommend some Bagaration era scenarios that have the Soviets taking on a more historically typical German force? I've downloaded Sword of Bagration from the Proving Grounds but have yet to paly it. It looks promising though- great map!

BTW, I read that by mid 1944 there were normally only about 80 or so Tigers operational on the whole of the Ostfront on any given day (Erickson) and that most Tigers that were ko'd in action were ko'd by infantry in close combat. A good proportion were lost as a consequence of mechanical breakdown and more as a result of air attack. The same source states that it was rare for a Tiger to be ko'd by an enemy tank. I guess this would make sense. In the scenario that prompted my earlier post I couldn't help thinking that if I was Colonel Denisovich commanding the Soviets I'd be appealing for more artillery and air assets (if I could get my Commissar on side to back my request...)to help sort out the KTs rather than trying to make do with what I had.

Cheers,

Billy

[Guest Mike]

Billy - are you interested in PBEM-ing with a fellow kiwi? Contact me via the e-mail in my profile.

Mike

[Andreas]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Bigduke6 and Andreas,

Am glad you two have now apparently decided what was, and what was not, Bagration, who, BTW, I now actually also know of as a person, thanks to some Napoleonic documentaries on the History Channel.

I am not concerned about the outcome of these discussions, as long as I am proven right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petr_Bagration

All the best

Andreas

[John Kettler]

Andreas,

Too funny! And a very well documented Wiki piece. Call me impressed!

Regards,

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

About big cats, i seem to recall the last two remaining Elefants made it all the way back to the suburbs of Berlin to make their last stand. So its not entirely out of the question you'll face impossibly heavy armor. If this were the real world you could try to isolate and encircle, but CM-size maps and timeframes don't usually fit with this tactic. One thing I love and everybody else hates is the IL-2 tank buster. Yes, the'yre about as likely to attack you as the enemy in a typical scenario, but the heavies seem to draw-in fighters like flies to a cow pie. If you've got fighter-bombers and he's got a KT somewhere on the map you're likely to see a big secondary explosion well outside of your LOS about fifteen turns into the game.

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

And don't forget the KV-2 at the Krupp plant in Essen!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

... 11 Tigers actually participated in the attack, according to Soviet records.

...

Combat reports claimed a total 13 Tigers and an undetermined number of other German tanks destroyed in the action. If you look at the accounts there are specific claims of 11 Tigers destroyed by direct fire, one Tiger just abandoned by its crew (it was found empty of ammo), and one Tiger that bogged and got stuck.

13 out of 11 Tigers destroyed. :cool:

Gruß

Joachim